I = Interviewer (Sue)

S = Shaun

IG = Igor

P = Patrick

C = Catherine

D = David

A = Alex

I:  Some of you know what you’re getting into; the rest of you are thinking, “This sounds all very odd.” I’ll just take you through what we’ll roughly be doing and then and then we'll get cracking. My name is Sue. I work for a company called Fusion Learning. We're an independent marketing and market research company. We work for whole range of different clients. In this case we’re actually working for a financial client, who most of you will be familiar with. And we just ask a load of questions, we're trying to find out your opinions, there is no right or wrong answer. We’re also asking you to help us develop some new ideas, some new ways of thinking about the bank and about business banking specifically. Some of the things we’ll do you might think, “This is very, very strange.” But for those of you who have already been to one of these, we just do a few exercises. Few creative exercises, have a bit of fun with it. Make you think because that's why you’re here. We're going to be here for 2 and a half hours, which sounds a long time and it is quite but as we get going you'll soon be through it hopefully. And hopefully you’ll enjoy it. We'll have a quick break about mid-time but if you do want to use the washrooms just go along, you know where they are. The final thing is we are being recorded and also videoed. Now, this is for primarily my benefit, so I can actually listen to you rather than taking copious notes. I'll take some, but I actually just want to listen and talk to you. So, that's the reason for that. I look back at both the videotape of you and also listen to the audio to make sure that what I’ve remembered is actually what I’ve remembered rather making it up as I go along. We have a few of my colleagues behind the mirror so I would get this out of the way now. So, do you want to just wave to them, say hello. You will forget that's even there after a while. I forget all the time and then realize that I've done something vaguely appropriate, but I forget all the time. I do this - I go around - tell me your first name; tell me what business type you have; and tell me a little bit about your business banking, what's working great, what's not working so well, what would you like to change, just a little bit for me to get a feel for who you are and the type of business banking arrangements you have. I always start on my left, I'm not going change. Right of we go.

S:   My name is Sean. I'm an owner of a luxury lingerie brand specifically for postpartum recovery, and we have patents for our bras. We primarily use line credits, products, checking, we do have a savings account, but we don’t use it.

I:  What's working well and what’s working less well.

S:  What could work better is more interaction with the branch, maybe getting calls from the branch and a specific rep that is dedicated to us to educate us on trends that are happening in banking and options available instead of us having to go to them.

I:  Next to Sean.

IG:  My name is Igor. I have a sales contracting and renovation type business. I provide installation services as well as sales services for different companies. I primarily bank with just regular business banking as well as a business credit card. The one thing I could see being improved is consistency between tellers because very often one person will say one thing while the other. One time the hold on a check will be three days, one will be five. It'd be nice to have consistency in the banking side.

I:  Okay, next to Igor.

P:  My name is Patrick and I have a small service company, it’s a locksmith company. I've gone through from starting with just a truck running around and looking after people's locks to wanting to wanting to retail, and had a retail store, and grew the business (INAUDIBLE 4:40)) in my industry. Now we’re four trucks running around. We no longer have retail, we’ve reduced it to commercial space and we just operate it and we run around town. With regard to banking I've been with the CIBC for about 40 years and I have used other institutions, initially that started with on the retail side we couldn't make deposits on both of Visa and MasterCard to Visa, so we developed a relationship with what was the MasterCard company and Visa was CIBC so it grew from there. Most of my current account of banking is with CIBC with the exception of a Bank of Nova Scotia account that I have, and I believe evolved from our relationship with the CFIB, and it had to do with - it's an American account - so we have our American clients to write deposits into that for US funds. How the bank could do better? The bank has been fine to me. I mean it's a current account it doesn't culminate any interest and a lot of the time we’ll have a lot of money in there and we don't really stay on top of moving the money around as much as we like. One of the things that really helped that CIBC did - this was years ago - was when I started my company, and it was starting to grow, they asked me to go in and take courses on financial analysis, which really did help. It was very helpful. It enabled us to understand that big sales don't make big profits and how to run lean and so forth. The bank work could maybe… I'm with the other participants where it pertains to the relationship with the people on the ground and not always getting the same information. That’s been an issue.

I:  Great. Next to Patrick.

C:  I’m Catherine. I’m a contemporary art dealer, an antique dealer, and I run a publication store. I’m here in Toronto but for the last eight years I operated in New York and Toronto at the same time. A year before that I was Los Angeles and Toronto. I’ve been with CIBC since I was a student, they’ve given me lots of credit which is handy in my business, they’ve never given me a hard time about the credit. I had an American account with them that they closed down because at that point I’d taken some money out and there wasn’t enough balance, and nobody contacted me to tell me that they were closing. The next time I was getting a wire from an important client it was quite embarrassing, when they tried to deposit it didn’t go in. Again, more personal service I would like, although I don't really go into the bank that often because I travel so much. One thing that I would find more beneficial is being able to be transferred higher amounts of funds. I figure if it’s money in the account I shouldn’t have to.

D:  Can you do that to the States?

C:  No not to the States but if I was in the States and I had to pay one of my Canadian artists I would like to be able to just give them their money in one shot. But if I owed them $5000 I had to give them 2 and then 2. Then they put limitations on how much you can send per week and how much you can send per month and that kind of thing. I prefer doing things electronically than writing checks, I don’t trust the mail that much. That’s my thing.   

I:  David.

D:  My name is David. I'm a painting contractor. I've been doing it for probably 30 years and I’ve been with CIBC probably 35. I do a lot of online banking, so I have a business visa which is great. But in my line of business I pay… Everyone at this table has probably paid somebody cash for something to save the 13%, like the VAT in England is enormous, its 20% in Scotland. If I price a job for $40,000 what's 13% of that? $5,200. Well can you say, “Listen, can I pay you cash.” Yeah, sure enough. I'll get $40,000 in cash. So, I go to the bank and I've got a t4 that says I made $22,000 for the last nine years in a row. 21,000, 37,000, 41,000. That’s how I borrow my money. So, I can’t borrow large amounts of money. So, if I took a larger job, say doing a condo that was paid - anyone get paid 30, 60, 90, 180? You work for Tridel, you get paid 180, you’ve got to wait 6 months before you get paid. So, let's say I employ people for 6 months. I won't be able to draw on a larger cash base, I won’t be able to pay them. Because I can't borrow any money from the bank because it’s based on your t4. If the bank can figure out - I don't know how they're going to do it - well the government's figured out waitresses. They figure, okay waitresses make what do they make. They just even ballpark it.

C:  Have you been audited?

D:  Yes, 05 and 06.  Two years in a row, it’s unbelievable. I had a $17,000 penalty on an $18,000 underreporting feeds. Oh, they’re fabulous. my wife works for (INAUDIBLE 10:20) her sister works for CRA, she just had her kitchen done. She’s a revenue collector for CRA. She paid all cash. Paid the tiler cash, the plumber cash, the countertop guys cash. Everyone took cash. But anyway that's just my…

C:  Do you have credit cards?

D:  I do, yeah. But let’s say you needed $150,000. Let's say you need a large cash flow. You can't get over that hump. If you had to pay somebody for 6 months, 4 guys for 6 months, I can do the numbers now, but I don’t want to bore you with that. It’s hard. When you walk into the bank the sole proprietor it would be difficult to get - I don't necessarily need to borrow all that money - but if you did have to get over 30, 60, 90, or 180. Wouldn’t be able to do it.

C:  The fees are high as well. The fees for business banking. It’s insane how much they take every month. 

A:  I like when they add them up, they just see line item, line item, line item, line item.

C:  I write it all off of my taxes but that’s still money that disappears.

D:  You still have to pay for it, you’re just not paying tax on it.

I:  Right, tell us about you; then we might go back to the fees.

A:  My name is Alex. We've got a family restaurant that’s been in the family for about 30 years now. I took over a little while ago. And actually, I’ve been with CIBC since I was a little kid. I feel like they've been doing a pretty outstanding job of getting with the times electronically. At first they had a problem with their online banking system, that it wasn’t happy with the way it was worked and the way it looked and slowly started improving it. But then I’ve had a similar issue as Igor with the consistency about tellers. And then when I moved, there was another CIBC closer to me, but they got rid of their tellers and it was all electronic, and I found that very useless. There's someone that's there to help you but for the most part he’s just helping people to learn how to use the online system, the computer system they have set up. I was spending more time just waiting there, so instead I had to check all the way down to my original branch to talk to them because they know.

IG:  The exact same thing happened to my bank right next to me, they went teller free. It’s a hassle.

A:  I don't think it saves any more time.

I:  Before we get into talking about business banking specifically, I'm going to get you to do a little bit of a brand exercise. Because what we quite often do when we do these sorts of discussions is we’ll send out some homework. But I'll be honest with you, we didn’t have the chance. So, we didn't get you to do any homework, which is a plus side for you guys in a way but it’s less of plus side for because we need to do this. I’m going to ask you to think of a brand that you relate to in some shape or form. Can be from a personal perspective, it can be from a business perspective. Really doesn't matter. It's a brand that you relate to, you think you engage with, you know something about, you have some affinity with that brand. Then, what we're going to do is we are going to fill it in this template. I say we, I mean you individually are going to fill this in. This is a way that we work with brands in marketing and it's called positioning. it's how you position your brand in the market. For instance, we have Apple here. This is one that somebody did earlier. What really was somebody did earlier, and you could still do Apple. It's your opinions that I’m interested in. I'm not interested in whether you think it’s different to that, that’s fine. It's your opinions. This is something somebody did earlier. This is Apple, one of the biggest brands in the world and this is what they thought in terms of how it puts itself in the market. In terms of, who's the target? They've put absolutely anybody who's old enough to work with any form of technology. What makes the brand unique and original? What does the brand stand for? In this case they've said leaders in breakthrough products. You might not agree, that's fine. It’s what I’m asking you to think about what you think it stands for.  What's the brand's personality? Most brands when you see them on TV, you see them in the street, see any form of advertising or promotion, they have a feel about them, they have some personality. You might argue that banks maybe don't, I think most people would probably disagree, but every brand has some form of personality. It’s usually communicated via the advertising. For instance, for this one with Apple they've said lively, bubbling, respectable, trendy. That’s the personality they've given Apple. Then we've got, what aspect of this brand woul d make you choose it over another? It's what's really setting it at apart from competitors in essence. They've gone for reliability in this case. Then, what's the essence of a brand? The essence of a brand is a single line, a single statement that sums up what that brand is all about. I'm not going to give you an example because I'll just confuse you. For them they went for sleek, user friendly products you trust and rely on. They think that that sentence sums up what Apple is all about. So if they said that in Apple somebody would go, “Yeah, absolutely agree with you.” As I say, you might not but this is what I'm going to ask you to do for the brands you think of. Before we get going shout out a brand that you think you’re going to do. Fill this in for me. Did you say you were going to do Apple?

S:  I was going to do Apple.

I:  It’s a brand that you engage with, that you engage with. We’ve got Apple, Sean is going to do Apple. What else, you can do Apple as well if you want. Don’t all do Apple.

C:  I’m going to do Harley-Davidson.

I:  What else?

D:  I’ll do Benjamin Moore.

I:  Brilliant.

A:  Nike.

I:  Patrick?

P:  I’m going to do Volvo.

I:  Excellent. What are you going to do Igor?

IG:  Ford. 

I:  Not got loads of time, so don't think too deeply about it. I'm going to give you about five minutes and then we're just going to have a little bit of a chat okay.

PREPARATION

I:  We’re going to go around and I want just to shout out, just remind me of the brand. Short-term memory problems. And what do you think the essences is of that brand. We'll just have a general chat. We’ll ask quite a few other things just to make sure everybody's happy with how this is all working. Because this is what we're going to focus on for the next couple of hours in terms of understanding a brand its position in the market and how it works with its customers. I'm going to start the other side this time. Alex, what's your essence? What's your brand.

A:   Nike. Keep going to be the best version of you.

I:  What made you go for that essence? Why do you think that just really sums up Nike?

A:   From all their ads they have going on, it's very much about not giving up, keep pushing through. Even their newest ad it’s like, don’t quit, all the people that laugh at you and say you can’t do it, that’s the fuel to make you do even greater things.

I:  Who do you think the target is for Nike?

A:  Anyone who is physical and active.

I:  David, I really can’t remember; what brand you were going for?

D:  Benjamin Moore.

I:  Go on, essence.

D:  Good quality brand, targets industrial painters, commercial painters, residential painters, and decorators and designers. If I come in expecting a brand-new house that’s 5,000 square feet (INAUDIBLE 24.04) done a residential build lately. Decorator always wants Benjamin Moore.

C:   Simply White.

D:  OC-117. I just finished painting that all this morning. Yeah, you know Simply White. It was CC-40 then it was CC-30.

I:  So, what’s the essence of the brand because good quality could apply to another brand. Couldn't it, really?

D: Who's heard of Farrow & Ball here.

C:  I have.

I:  I obviously have.

D:  It’s (INAUDIBLE 24:29) based paint. You buy one can here, one can here, one can here, they’ll all be three different colours. Because they're all shipped from England, they got to shake them up at the store, there's only 2 left alright, they’re 95 bucks a gallon which isn’t too bad.

I:  And heat effects the colours.

D:  Yeah it does. But it’s dead flat, looks beautiful. So, people want Benjamin Moore, I buy Benjamin Moore, it’s a great paint.

I:  So, great paint, good quality. Excellent; Catherine, what was yours?

C:  Harley-Davidson.

I:  What’s the essence?

C: American-made freedom machine.

I:  Very nice. Who do you think the target is for Harley-Davidson?

C:  I think now it’s men, women, young, old, children, they’re doing bicycles. They’re just trying to get people into the bran really early.   

I:  Right, Patrick. Volvo. What is the very essence of what the Volvo brand is about?

P:  The essence? I just wrote safe, reliable, stylish.

I:  And target? Is there a specific target for a Volvo? Are we thinking cars here or are we thinking lorries and vans as well?

P:  No, I'm just thinking cars. They don’t really have that much exposure in that here, in Europe they have all that. The Volvo brand is growing here – the trucks and the heavy equipment - but we're pertains to, my thinking is like if we think “What’s Volvo?”

I:  It’s a car.

P:  But the target market, I wrote middle-income, middle-aged family.

I:  Brilliant.

P:  They’re trying to focus on that swathe.

I:  What drove you to think of that particular target group? What is it particularly about Volve? Maybe about their advertising or what they say about the cars.

P:  There’s some uniqueness about it. Because for years and years they didn't change their styles, their models were the same and they were regarded as the most durable or utilitarian if you will. They’d stay on the road for ever. When other car makers, that wasn't even part of their end-game. To me that made it unique.

I:  Igor what did you… Ford.

IG:  Ford, after Volvo. For the essence I wrote a reliable vehicle for the most demanding jobs.

C:  Like an F-150. 

IG:  Yeah, that’s trucks. I know a lot of people when they think of Ford they think of trucks. They do make cars also but that's their main thing. They said within the next few years they're scrapping almost every car design they have, sticking only with two models. Focusing on their trucks. The target? I put, generally is anybody even ages 4 and 5 and above because they started ingraining that Ford tough image in them. But also, they very well from what I've seen with people who work in labour related fields. Anything where things have be towed or moved or rocks anything like that.

I:  Very specific to use in that respect. Sean, Apple? Have you noticed I’ve taken the board away?

S:  The essence I had was technology that's designed to allow creatives to safely be who they are and think differently.

I:  Why the safely? What put that in mind?

S:  I compare… Most people have an iPhone or something else. When you have an Apple product you don't worry about viruses, so you can safely download. You don't have to worry about any operating system other than that infected with viruses you have to have anti-virus software. All the commercials advertising is all about people being creative, using their technology to do what they do. Could be music or creative writing or drawing. You can use their products. But they've always emphasised thinking differently. That’s where the safety and creative come in.

I:  Who do you think is the target?

S:  Creatives, anyone the desire to… Well it's not just creatives, I see it mostly as their advertising has been more being creative and artistic. Traditionally Microsoft has been the business software of choice, now I see Apple becoming more popular. Creatives turning into normal business functions as well.

I:   Interesting. Just out of interest, how did you find doing that exercise? Did you enjoy it? Did you find it a bit tricky?

D:  Easy.

S:  The only part I found a little bit, not really difficult, but a lot of the categories overlapped, so it’s hard not to write the same thing.

I:  That’s very true and you would not be the only one to have that trouble, marketeers have exactly that same trouble. Screaming at me from behind the window. That's brilliant, pass them along to me while I’m rambling about what we’re going to do for the next session. I’ll just take those away from you.

PREPARATION

I:  What are we going to do for the next couple of hours. We are basically, particularly for the next hour but even for the hour after that we're going to follow a very similar process basically. We are going to be focusing on CIBC business banking, your all customers, that's why you're here, and that's what we're going to concentrate on today. We're going to work with some various routes that they and one of their agencies have come up with to help them develop their service onwards, but to position it in the market maybe slightly differently. Your perceptions of how its positioned at the moment will be in a certain way. Say they're here. What they're looking at is saying, “Well should we shift it this way? Should we shoot it this way a bit? Should we move it up?” Just moving it around a little bit in terms of how it sits in the market and how, hopefully, it will work for you guys. We're speaking to lots of different types of business banking customers, with different types of businesses on whether they have a very strong relationship with the bank, a less strong relationship. Do they have the primary account? Some secondary accounts? That's what we're doing. We're going to focus on the position of the bank. We're going to be looking at various descriptions that fit into those broad categories but I'm also going to ask you to pull things apart and come up with things like essences and things like that. Which is why we have this practice to begin with. What we're going to do first, is I am going to show you two positionings that people have come up. Remember what I said about. I'm good to give you each one of these and I want you to effectively lay them in front of you and you're going to review them next to each other. The reason we do this is often you'll respond in a certain way to something and think, “Oh yeah that's brilliant or that is rubbish, I really don't engage with that, that's not for me.” But then when you look at something else and you think actually, when I compare it to this I’m maybe thinking that might be interesting because of this. This is what I'm going to ask you look at both. I'm not going to read them out because you can all read. Everybody would go, “Oh my God, she's droning her way through the positionings.” This is what we've got I'm going to leave this here for you but at the same time I'm going to give you one of each. You will have noticed that you have two coloured highlighters in front of you. Looking at these, so effectively next to each other, what I'd like you to do is on each one I'd like you to highlight with red where it's something that you engage with, you feel fits with you or your business. Or think that's an interesting way forward…  So red is for red hot. It's something you like the look of, you engage with it, it fits with you and your business. Blue is either something you don't like the sound of, really doesn't work for you. It might be that there's a whole lot of white on there, that's fine. What I want to know is what are the highlights and the lowlights of each of those. So, read them through it might be an individual word, it might be a whole sentence. What I will say as I will be coming back to you to understand where you're coming from. Final things with each of these, I want you to give it a rating out of 10. How much does it fit with what you want from a business bank?

S:  Are we looking at it objectively or just for our own needs?

I:  I want you to look at if your own needs, from your perspective. Well we'll do objectively as well, but for this assessment I want it from your perspective, absolutely. Your business, you as a person. Red is good it's hot, blue is cold.

PREPARATION

I:  Have we got a score out of 10 Patrick? Got a score out of 10 ten on each of them?

P:  Yeah, I would say this one is in an 8 and this one is a 6.

I:  Do you mind writing it on for me. Right okay so I think we'll do As Unique As You Are first.

S:  8.

P:  8.

C:  8.

D:  6.

A:  6.

I:  I'm going to start with you two guys because you’re a little bit lower at the moment. So tell me what appealed to you with As Unique As You Are?

A:  I like the message they’re trying to say. I just don’t think they’re doing that.

I:  What's the message that you like? What's the message that you think is there? That is trying to be got across but isn’t getting across.

A:   They're basically saying that we're going to cater your banking needs to your specific business and if they try and tell this to everyone, with all the different businesses out there, it's almost like how are you going to have my restaurant versus his restaurant, you have two different things we want to do and they're different goals. But they're not going to say okay we'll only do this for you but not this person because they don't need it. They're going have, from my experience, this is what we do, and this is what we do here, and this is what we do here. Which one do you fall under?

IG:  Is this almost like future projects or what we currently think how this applies to current (INAUDIBLE 42.32).

I:  No, this is how CIBC can move their business banking.

IG:  This is for the future it has not necessarily been implemented?

I:  No. Some of these things you might think they do this already, and that would be right because it's very rare that when somebody's trying to shift their position in the market that they totally change everything. Usually it's about saying, “What are we good at, how can move that, and what do we need to add in to it?” Which is what we're doing today. From what you're saying, what you’re experiencing at the moment is quite different to this.

A:  Yeah, they want us to pick where we fit in as opposed to catering. But I like the idea.

I:  What have you got marked in red in terms of what resonates with you?

A:  You make your business what it is. You get to know and respond to the unique requirements and why shouldn't you expect the same from your bank. That’s good.

I:  And what about the blue?

A:  The blue is, we don't want to be just a bank, we want to be your bank. They’re not fulfilling it.

C:  You feel like it’s a lie?

I:  Is this a lie versus current experience?

A:   I don't want to say lie, because I'm sure they have good intentions.

I:  But it’s not happening?

A:  Not yet.

I:  How do you feel about this happening in the future? Is this a worthwhile goal?

A:  For the banker, yeah, not the banks maybe. Because it might not be as profitable for them.

I:  Right, David, just tell us quickly what you’ve got. What do you like about it, what do you dislike about? What’s not working for you?

D:  I did like unique solutions for a unique business. I like that. And your business is unique because you are. But I didn't like at CIBC business banking we don’t treat all business the same. Well, they have business categories and you would be plunked into a business category. Like you would be being in a restaurant business, you got to climb up a mountain to more money. Same thing with being a self-employed painting contractor. The bank is in the business of lending money, it seems like it, and they make a lot of money. But do they necessarily want to lend a restaurant money, do they want to lend somebody like me money. I've got a unique business but where do I stand in their

I:   What would you need to see to make this move up in terms of appeal for you? How would they need to change what they were offering just at the moment?

D:  We have very unique ways of determining your business worth, however they do that. Just based on a t4 or your business statement. I don't know if everybody is being truthful, if everyone's putting in the amount of money that they've made with the government.  Sure we are. So, the bank goes on that and they believe them, like okay this guy's made whatever. The more money you make the more money you pay in tax. So, the more money you can borrow, you pay more money in tax. The interest can accrue, they can come higher. Everyone's got a credit rating, but it's your business credit rating. When they lend you money, being a sole proprietor, they look at my credit rating.

IG:  Even if you're not a sole proprietor, even if you’re a corporation, still your personal credit.

D:  Yeah, they will look at that, yeah. How do they determine, let's say you've got terrible personal credit but your business is making a tonne of money, they’re not going to lend you money. You have to put money in the bank, pay taxes on it, before you can borrow money.

S:  It depends on the assets of your business. If you're selling a service I agree, but if you’re selling widgets and you got 10 buildings full of widgets.

D:  Yeah, then you can borrow on the widgets. You got collateral.

S:  It’s all about the risk. But how do you assess humans for risk, it’s tough. People change right, at one point a guy is a straight-A student and then he turns south, and then the bank takes that hit.

C:  I’m considered a huge risk, actually. Especially going in other countries. I’m not on the mortgage, they were like, “We’ll just leave her out of it.”

I:   I see you’ve got loads of red on from here. But I also see a little bit of blue. Did you give it an 8, Catherine?

C:  I gave it an 8.

I:  What's the blue just out of interest?

C:  I didn’t – same as David – I didn’t like we don't treat all business the same. I felt like that sends a slightly negative connotation. That we maybe are only interested in people that are successful rather than people who might be struggling. I feel it sends the message of inequality.

I:  Interesting, so that particular statement sent a. Right, okay.

C:  If you’re looking at it as just advertising.

I:  What about the guys over here then? What was working particularly well for you, for As Unique As You Are? What was really resonating with you?

S:  Anything that spoke to me, putting the attention on me. Because I like me, and I like being talked about and I like to be catered to. I like those words. I wasn't even looking at this as CIBC and my history, just any bank in general. I just didn't like the negatives. Like why shouldn't you expect. The negative connotations to it. It just kind of throws me off. Because sometimes when I'm reading, I don't want to read this in an advertising to begin with, but just the keywords I'm looking for that is making me feel good. And ‘shouldn't’ is a negative I don’t want to appear on that.

I:   I noticed that you've got unique solutions for unique business, and that’s highlighted blue. Why have you got that in blue?

S:  Again, I like it being about me, because my business is me. As a small business owner anyway. Just the wording.

I:  Is it the uniqueness or is it the solutions? What is it that's not working for you?

S:  I think possibly the uniqueness. It was more about just the business, if it was talking more about me, to suit your needs. That would have been better in my eyes.

I:  Igor, what have you got?

IG:  I looked at it from an advertising perspective, like if this was being advertised to me how would it appeal to me for the future CIBC banking. I gave it an 8 because I think overall the message is good.

I:  What did you take out as the message from it? What’s the overall message for you?

IG:  Basically, that they're ready to cater to my needs in order to help me improve my business and my overall life enjoyment. I like the introduction and the ending matched up nicely because it goes in saying that your business is unique because you are unique. I think that applies to most businesses, as to me. And I like how it closes like that too, with the unique solutions for unique business I think it's a really clever tagline that I haven't heard before. I mean, I've heard the word unique, but in this term, I really liked it. I didn't like where it says, you make your business what it is, because it feels very redundant after the first sentence.  It’s already saying your business is unique, you’re unique, your vision, your goals, your experience. Right after that, you make your business what it is, kind of just repeating the same thing. And it starts to get a little bit cheesy at that point.

I:  You’re going to have a chance to tidy this.

IG:  I also like the last sentence of the third paragraph where it says, as your needs change (INAUDIBLE 50.42) we adapt and respond to make our service always match exactly what you need. Because that's showing how they're going to achieve what they're promising to, so they're kind of setting a plan. The reason I didn't rate it a 10 was because it felt a little bit cliché. like It felt like it was just trying to appeal to my sense of individuality instead of a more realistic approach. At the same time I feel like it could have done a better job explaining how the were going to go about it, provide you with a personal assistant for your business or whatever it is.

I:  We will come to that, in terms of how they're going to make this work.

IG:  Overall, I like the idea.

I:   Very quickly Patrick and then we’ll move on to the other one.

P:  I was with Igor. Liked the beginning, liked the end to a certain extent. And then in the middle...

I:  You’ve got some blue going on there.

P:  Well, guess what, you're just a bank and it's somewhat disingenuous to say you know we're going to be different. We're going to create service that is as unique as you, it's almost sycophantic. We're gonna make it, we're buddies right? Give me your dough. So I would use those terms, and in a sense a little bit condescending. We know how unique your business is, so we know how to meet those needs. You don’t. You don't want to go too far that way. So, that's what I thought they did in the middle but they opened and close well.

I:  Let's do some a similar thing for The Power of Our Network. Again, throw the scores at me out of 10.

S:  3.

IG:  7

P:  6.

C:  6.

D:  6.

A:  7.

I:  Little bit different here. I'm going to ask you all, because I think pretty much… Actually no. You were both marginally higher than the other two, but the rest of you were all lower.

IG:  I was at 7 also.

I:  Okay. You’re all lower than the score you gave for As Unique as You Are. For guys who were all lower, why? I’m coming onto you in a minute, you really don't like it. Why did we rate, it even if it's only a little bit lower?

P:  I’ll start. At the beginning I found it was somewhat of a flowery message, they're using almost romantic terms, you had a dream. Then, at the end there banging it out with, the business power grid.’ Where are you going with this? It’s a little bit too fragmented.

I:  You've got a lot of blue at the bottom, I can see that from here.

C:  I actually loved the, you had a dream, because that was my story. You did something that others couldn’t do and that thing. So, I liked all that, you know, you’re down in the trenches trying to make it and that kind of stuff. I like that they said that you’re connecting with other people and that's how you build your network. I don't like the term power, I think power is abused and I think they’re the ones with the power. I think strength is a better word than power.

I:  What do we all think about the business power grid?

S:  Hate it.

C:  Hate.

I:  We’ve got two hate it.

P:  I don’t connect with it.

I:  You don’t connect with it.

IG:  Just sounds discombobulating. Sounds like a poorly made tagline.

C:  Sounds like a bunch of jerks.

I:  Well you are definitely going to be working on this one.

D:  It’s a neat picture though. 

I:  Like the picture. Just out of interest what does the picture suggest to you?

IG:  Connectivity.

C:  Cell phones. 

P:  Biggest cities in the US and Canada.

I:  Guy who chose the pictures going to be chuffed.

IG:  I like the overall idea for this better I just thought that the execution was poor.

I:  You like it better, tell me what it is. What are wanting, what are you expecting from this?

IG:  I like it better because it's a new idea for me. I know about networking, but I never thought about the bank helping you network with other businesses, maybe making seminars. But once I started reading it was interesting but in no way explained how they're going to do anything, it’s just saying we're going to plug you into so and so and so. But I don't understand what they're offering and if I can't understand, it doesn't appeal to me as much.

I:  How about the rest of you? How do you feel about this idea of the bank helping you network?

P:  I don't know how that is possible.

IG:  It's a cool idea but how are they going to do it.

S:  Yeah, when I was reading it, at first, I was connecting with the whole putting the business on your back and all that stuff.  Then all of a sudden it went into CIBC, “We're going to take over from here.” Give us your business because we can do this for you, make it better for you okay. They go from something you do, you made it good, and then it’s like (INAUDIBLE 56:17) you should be with us and we’ll take you where you need to be. Then, when I thought of networking, to me it was more so like a social network and being connected, I didn’t really think about the bank’s network. (INAUDIBLE 56:35) and think, who are they connected to and how can I benefit from their connections. I think that’s maybe what you’re trying to say towards the end there.

I:  But you didn’t take that out?

S:  I didn’t take that right away. I’m not sure how I feel about it.

C:  Again, it’s like you can’t do it on your own. The cats, the dogs, the (INAUDIBLE 56.55).

D:  There some words like burden that jumped out at me.

C:  You need to be part of something bigger, it says.

P:  When I first looked down, I looked at the lemons and the grapefruit. Then I looked at the grid, I like that better.

I:   If I take you away from the pictures. There’s always a massive debate about whether we have pictures on or not. Many people like to see a picture as well because the words can be like…

P:  No, I love that picture.

IG:  I didn’t notice them until after somebody pointed them out.

I:  They can be tricky. David, what did you like about this The Power of Our Network. Not the picture.

D:  I didn't like the business power grid, I think I'm annoyed with everyone else there, that tagline. I did write at CIBC we believe that real business success… Yeah, networking, I believe what they believe. Certainly, they're not going to refer me. I did paint a teller’s apartment once, but that’s about as much networking as I got. You've borne the burden of your business on your back and got to where you have through grit and determination. I don't know, I got referred a lot and sometimes the jobs just dropped into my hand. I worked really hard, but I don’t know if I believe that. But I did like the you had a dream one, not that it's like Martin Luther King or anything like that.

S:  You had a dream, but I still have a dream. I'm always dreaming. Again the negatives, you can't do this alone.

I:  You know the statement that says, that's why when we connect you to our network. What do you think they'll have in their network? I know you said I want to know, I'm not getting this. But what would you expect, based on the fact that they're saying it's the power of our network what's your expectations before. I'm going to show you some types of services that they'll include within these. But what's your expectation? What are you expecting from their network?

D:  Lots of branches.

I:  What else?

IG:  As in what services they could provide to help with networking?

I:  It could be or could it be also what network have they got? What is this network? What are they trying to… Have we got any idea?

S:  As a small business owner I'm always looking for advice on things that I never knew about. Having a business less than 10 years old, there’s a lot of things I don't know. Sometimes I hear through other entrepreneurs that have gone through that before me. So, maybe entrepreneurs that have a lot of knowledge about my particular business needs? Things that I don’t know about, that I should know about.

C:  Maybe financial advisors.

D:  Can I ask a quick question? Is there a separate company that runs the green machines or the automated teller machine than it does the bank?

I:  I have no idea, tell me why you asked the question then we’ll move on.

D:  I can put a $20,000 check into the green machine or ATM or whatever it is and then go to the teller and take all that money out. When I go to the teller, well they don't hold it, they hold 5,000 so I can only take out 5 and they'll keep the 15. But I can put all the money in the green machine. I guess it's just based on…

I:  I have no idea. If it’s any comfort, it’s exactly the same in the UK.  What we are going to do now is I'm going to split you into two teams and you're each going to work on one of these. And you're going to try and make it better in essence. If we can't make it better we're going to try and understand what we need to do with it. I’m going to split you into two first and you'll see that we've got a flipchart on each side. I'm not going to split you right down the room because I actually want to make sure, because you've responded differently to various things. Alex can you go with Sean and Patrick. Then, David, Catherine and Igor will go on the other one.  I don't want to which flipchart you choose.

P:  Do you want to give us titles?

I:  Yeah, so I'll tell you what you’re going to be working with. You can have grapefruit over here, given you liked it so much. But you’ve got to focus on words as well as pictures for me. The first thing I’m going to ask you to do, is I’m going to ask each team to think of an essence. What sums up this CIBC business banking. This is what it looks like. I know you don't know about exactly how the service will look, at the moment, and what they're going to include. But I want you to tell me if you had to sum this up, in a phrase.  To be fair some of you have effectively already done that because you've said, “Well, I think it's this.” That's what I want you to do. What is an essence? But I want you to do it as a group of three. What is the essence of what this CIBC business banking is all about? Essence is the first thing. I suggest you write essence on, you’ve got flipchart pens over here. I want you to devise an essence, I want you to sum up what this is all about. What is this new CIBC business banking all about? What is the essence of this idea? You might want to use some of that but based on what a lot of what you have said I don’t think you do, because you can improve it. So, think essence and then I’m going to give you a few more extra things that I want you to do as well.

PREPARATION/BREAK 1:03:55 -  1:35:38.

I:  We are going to present back what we’ve just done, to each other now. We’ll go for your team here because we’re all stood over here. You can either sit down or stand up. I’m going to stand here just because then I can see what it is. My eyesight is not brilliant either if I stand right over there. What I’ve asked the team to do is you’re going to present back what we’ve just done. Who’s the target for this idea? Why should we engage with this idea? So that first paragraph that you were tweaking, trying to tidy up a bit. What does this service have to offer? The various service offerings there and have a bit of an understanding why. And what that tagline is? Then, we’ll probably just cover the essence as well. In terms of what the actual overall idea is. Over to you, we ought to give you team names really, but I don’t think we’ve got time for that.

A:  We're targeting already growing businesses.

I:  Already growing businesses.

A:  Already growing businesses or ready to grow businesses. We took a very similar stance with the empathy to connect with people's emotions. But it almost seemed as if it had a little more of a negative feeling to it. You had a dream, you had the burdens and all these problems and…

C:  You failed.

A:  Oh my God why would you own your own business? We changed, you have a vision you decided to take a leap and create something towards a certain level of life success.

P:  You've already achieved some success.

A:  Yes, you've already achieved that success through even making that decision. Them, we want to talk about connecting people, like-minded, other growing businesses, to help grow that success. Did I touch base on everything you’ve talked about aside form the tagline yet?

I:  Yeah, I think so. Which of these service offerings did you think particularly made sense? Those things you stuck up for me.

S:  The peers to power your ambitions. This is where you are taking a network of like-minded professionals, so these are people that have their own businesses as well and you get together, and you share ideas. The expert grid is where CIBC would be bringing in your own panel of business professionals that talk about a certain topic and you can ask questions. The skills exchange is helping you connect with other business owners, but you can provide a skill that they need and maybe you can help.

P:  The mentorship model. That’s the term they use here, is mentorship. It’s not (INAUDIBLE 1:38:36).  What is the network? Maybe just that one word okay that they use here a couple of times. If you can take one or two words from each of these and throw it into the message, then maybe that’s what you’re… To get to one of the selling points in one or two words, that’s the genius.

I:  Just tell me, take me through which ones you haven’t gone for and why you’ve rejected those.

P:  A library of data sources.

C:  Sounds like work.

P:  I’m already putting in 80 hours a week. I’m going to put in 90 and pay you guys to make me more successful? I don’t know. This one here, the start strong program, it’s…

S:  It’s about starting your own business.

P:  This is like - they describe it as HR101 - all of these things are for beginners. I think that the target for this isn't beginners, it’s guys who are poised to grow. To stick them with the next level.

S:  The last one here was CIBC smart banking for business. It's a smart online dashboard that benchmarks your performance against your peers. Alex was saying itwould be great if you knew in the restaurant industry what types of metrics they are – how do you compare to how they’re doing? They've already got your data. The only difference is if you're paying my check they don't know what that expense was for. But I know that a lot of your transactions on credit card, they will already categorized them, so you can see how profitable your other restaurants are and compare them against, yeah.

P:  My concern with that, with expressing the network in that regard, is the whole concern of privacy. Like hold on wait a sec.

A:  It’s just anonymous though.

P:  Younger people wouldn't mind that, I think older people would have that concern. Younger people are comfortable with the idea of being completely open. Older people are not.

D:  Yeah, not me.

C:  You don’t like transparency?

I:  Why didn’t that fit up there?

A:  This didn’t fit with this. This was more about together helping each other. Mutually interacting with each other as well. This one was just purely…

I:  Is that over to the bank?

A:  Or just go online and you can see metrics.

I:  I understand, that’s really helpful.

A:  We like the idea.

P:  It’s ((INAUDIBLE 1:41:13

) of the term network. What is networking? Is it people liaising or is it an electronic grid?

I:  You’re going with people.

S:  Oh, the last part.

I:  The tagline, together we grow.

S:  Yes.

D:  I like that. Here’s one question I wanted to ask about mentorship. Where did that come in?

I:  You will get a chance to go over and have a quick look at this before we get on to the next thing. Why together we growth?

S:  That’s all part of connections. We’re all forming a connection even with CIBC. As we connect with CIBC they connect us to other professionals within similar fields or things that we need to work with. We can all grow. Same thing if those professionals that come and see us for whatever reason, we all grow together.

P:  Togetherness is a strong positive word.

I:  So is grow.

P:  Power is a strong word, it’s not necessarily one that resonates. Some people are adverse to power, that's why they're working for themselves. Fight the power.

I:  Excellent, good job done. Over to you three.

D:  Here we are.

I:  Guys, engage because I’m going to ask you to come over and have a look in a minute and I want you’re input as well.

IG:  What are we starting with?

I:  Target and that first paragraph in terms of why we should engage with this idea.

IG:  We thought about the target and realistically I think it appeals to any business owner who has an ego. Because it starts talking about your story and how you're unique, and it doesn't matter if your business is creating art or selling screws, you still have your own unique approach to it and you think you do it differently. You might, you might not, but I think everybody likes to think they're unique in their own way. I think that pretty much has a broad spectrum of appeal to any business owner. I don’t think there's anyone that would be excluded from this. The first paragraph, it's a little bit too long, there's some redundant points. Just by taking out your vision, your goals, your experiences, your way of doing things, very repetitive with you, you, you all the time. If we just have, ‘Your business is unique because you're unique. You make your business what it is.’ We didn’t like that somebody pointed out, I think it was Sean, the negative connotation parts, like you shouldn’t, kind of thing. Instead of, ‘Why shouldn't you expect the same your bank?’ We wanted it say, ‘We want you to expect the same from us.’ Giving a personal approach. Your clients expected it from you, you should expect it from us for us, to treat you like an individual and not just a number. That resonates nicely. The rest of it was okay, it got the point across pretty well. It does say, ‘As your needs change we're going to be flexible, adapt.’ So, it gets a good point across. It pretty much explains it without going into detail about the different programs, so it keeps you interested. But it would be better if they said a couple of words from here in there, a couple of key points were put into here to give us a teaser of what's coming but instead of just a broad we don't know how they're going to accomplish it. The same way as the other (INAUDIBLE 1:45:02).

I:  Tell me about the service offerings that you think fit with you and fit with this idea.

IG:  We like the flexible benefits and charges. I've seen it implemented to a certain degree but it's kind of cold cut, there aren't very many options. It's pretty much, if you have this much in your account we’ll give you this option, yeah can pay per check or monthly fee. It'd be nice if you could sit down with somebody who knows your needs and come up with a customized plan that you could afford and make sure you're happy with. So, you don't have that negative connotation with a bank, that they're always taking your money. People were saying like $40 for a month for barely anything that you get.

C:   I got something like a $100 a month.

IG:  Yeah, exactly.

C:  Maybe if they could gauge, “Oh, she didn’t make any money this month. Let’s not charge her.” 

IG:  So, if they’re willing to give you a break when you don't have money in your account. They could make it more personalized based on income patterns or whatever it is. I think people would enjoy that. ‘Your plan’, is just basically an annual review of your finances. Which is I think is good because a lot of people shy away from that and they don't really budget or make those type of plans, they kind of live as you go. If you could sit down with somebody who's been following your business who could give you tips, advice. I don't see any negative to that and it does fit with this because you are personalizing the approach. This one seems like a reach, but if they could do it, it would be great. It says, ‘three people at any given time.’ No, sorry, three people would know your business inside and out. I'm not sure if it's your branch or within the bank. Basically saying, any time you come in chances are there's going to be somebody who knows you and you can work with that person. Which is really nice if somebody is off that day, if the other person is at lunch you come into your branch, like 99% of the time you'll have somebody there who knows your business.

D:  That would unique.

P:  It would be a throwback. That’s the way it was a forty years ago. I knew the same tellers for 15 years and now they change every 2 weeks.

IG:  And it seems like whichever beta comes first to market was an idea like that always leads for a certain amount of time. You remember TD raise their hours to 8pm, then everybody followed. So, if CIBC would do that I think it would be a really good idea because the other banks would have to as well, but they'd be the market leaders. I had personally switched a long time ago to TD and then I left back to CIBC for other reasons, but that was what got me in them. I think that’s an amazing point if they can pull it off. It seems like a huge undertaking but in theory it’s great. The intelligence software. Basically what it says there is that they want to be able to run an analysis of your business banking based on your cash flow, what money goes in. Like he was pointing out earlier, you might have like 30, 40 grand in the bank at one time, it’s just sitting there not accruing interest. They could find ways to split it temporarily, move it here for an investment, so kind of automatically manage your money or help you manage your money to make the most of it while it’s in the bank. As well as analyse patterns of cash flow in order to help you things. For example, you might have $100 available on overdraft but if the system sees you have a lot of money in your account flow and so on forth, it might automatically raise it to 1,000 that week you. If have a check that bounces or whatever. It's kind of like an intelligent approach to help you avoid NSF Fees and things like that. It treats your business based on its merit, not only on your personalized credit score and things like that. I think in theory that appealed to me and the others. If it can appeal to you, I think you would great for a broad range of people. The ones we didn't like - not necessarily because it was a bad idea, but we don't think it relates to this – is the whole view you. Which is saying we’ll help you manage your personal and your business accounts together. Some people do that, some people want to bank personal completely separate, some people don’t want to relate it. I don't think it applies to this whole unique approach to your business.

C:  Like if you want to keep your spouse out of your business.

IG:  Whatever it is.

I:  Was there another one as well? Did you have 6 or was it just the 5? No, maybe not. Just before we move on, I’m going to ask you the same question. If it could only be one of those service offerings, which one does it have to have for it to be this ‘As Unique as You Are’ offering. And that was the 3 people. Then we’ve got the flexible benefits. What about you, David?

D:  I’m flexible benefits.

IG:  I'd rather have the 3 people at any time I'm going. So I don’t have to deal with and repeat myself all the time.

I:  Just before we come on to your tagline, which one does yours have to have? Doesn’t matter, you don't have to agree. Which one do you think it has to have, for it to be?

P:  I would go with the skills exchange.

I:   So, you’d go skills exchange, Patrick.

S:  I personally would like to have people that have done it before that I can call upon, and if I have questions that can give me some advice.

I:  More of a mentorship thing. Alex what about you? It doesn't have to be one of those three. If there’s something specific you think, just as Sean’s just said, tweaked it round.

A:  I think the peers to power your ambition. Because the mentorship, yeah it’s nice, but a lot of the time your talking to someone who doesn't know your business. Might know of business in general but doesn’t know what your doing, doesn’t know about restaurants. Many people open up restaurants have no experience of it. Yeah they know about money, but they forget about the little guys, “Ah, cut his hours.” (INAUDIBLE 1:51:01).

C:  In art school we’d have art teachers who hadn’t been successful artists.

A:  Ah yes, those who can’t teach. 

I:  Just before we move onto the next one then, what's your tagline then?

IG:  We liked the tagline as it was. We just removed, instead of having unique twice just put personalised solutions for your unique business.

I:  We are going to look at 2 more, but we're going to do is a bit differently, so you don’t get bored. I’m going to pin these up and I'm going to ask you to stay in your same teams.

PREPARATION (INAUDIBLE 1:51:53 - (INAUDIBLE 1:52:20

This team here, what I'd like you to do is we're going to do the hot/cold thing again, but I’d like you to do it as a team. I want you to discuss it, so we get some semblance of agreement. You're going to do exactly the same. So blue for cold, things that really don't resonate with you, or are confusing just aren’t right, basically. Red for things that really work well. But again, they’ve got to work well for you and your business target. There’s 2 here for this team here. There’s going to be another 2 here, and I want you guys to do the same thing here.

PREPARATION (INAUDIBLE 1:53:00

- (INAUDIBLE 2:06:34

I:  We’ve got for Pro-to-Pro, we’ve got a 7 here and we have a 9 over here. Then we’ve got a 7 for real world experience and we’ve got a 6 for this one. Let’s have a look. Now Pro-to-Pro with you guys is doing really well. Just tell me overall what really grabbed you about it?

S:  I think everything was really positive, it was well worded. I don’t remember everything I said anymore.

A:  I remember them talking about the professionals, all the main expertise like tax, financial planning, and these things that really matter to every single business. And they said that they have the ultimate team to help you. We were kind of iffy about the ultimate, because my experience has never been you have the ultimate people working for you.

I:  But here you go. We go beyond traditional banking is highlighted in red. We give you an A-team of specialists with a singular focus supporting you and your business. Over here we've got we give you an A-team of specialists with a singular focus supporting you and your business. That resonated with all of you. Tell me what it was about that phrase? We give you an A-team of specialists with a singular focus? What was it about the phrase?

S:   I think it’s because this is our business and we want to be successful, sure it would be nice if everyone was, but you’ve got to care about yourself first. The bank is essentially telling you that we are going to be looking after you because you’re number 1.

IG:  Before that it talked about you pick people on your team that are the best. Because you're only as good as the people surrounding you. The bank is no different, they're the ones that are supporting you. If they're lacking then your whole business is going to be lacking.

I:  What about this idea of an A-team, how do we feel about that?

D:  Liked it. The Client Captain was catchy.

IG:  Yeah. A unique way of saying it. Instead of just saying, ‘We have a business team.’ it draws your attention.

C:  To Mr. T.

I:  Now I know I know in terms of what didn’t resonate was this ultimate, you’re a bit shaky either way there. So blue, we’ve got ‘you’re exceptional at what you do.’ Why didn’t that appeal?  What was wrong with that?

C:  Sounds like bullshit.

IG:  Yeah, like cheesy.

P:  What if we’re not?

D:  I'm a terrible businessman, you know. I walk in there, I'm overdrawn, all my checks are bouncing, and somebody says you are exceptional at what you do (INAUDIBLE 2:09:25).

IG:  If anything, it appeals more to people who aren’t exceptional, because they are going to support you with a team. They make you exceptional.

S:  I took that as you’re exceptional at selling paintings and sales of whatever you want to do.

C:  But I’m not.  I mean there's so many other people that are just as good or better.

IG:  It’s not that the compliment is not appreciated, it’s just said in a cheesy way. It's just the way it's worded, ‘you're exceptional.’

I:  Real world experience. We’ve got a 7 and a 6. Not awful ratings at all, got more blue on both of them. We’ve got, ‘most banks offer their expertise but really they’re just lightweights in expensive suits without any real experience.’

C:  We loved it. Because it was a joke.

I:  Why didn’t you like it this side?

P:  Well, if I go to the bank and I get a comedy show, I don't want it. If I go to a comedy show and I get a banker I don't like that either.

C:  There’s lots of commercials that are funny.

P:  But funny commercials don't work. Try and remember the name. After you saw a really funny commercial wait a couple of hours and try to remember the name of the product.

C:  Well, I would but I connect with comedy quite a bit.

S:  Just saying that, I look at it as, in my experience, how has CIBC been different than all the other banks.

IG:  But then it goes on to explain it immediately after.

S:  Is that how they've always been or is this what they’re planning on doing?

IG:  This is the whole point of this is like for future stuff.

I:  For change.

IG:  It's not based on your personal experiences. It’s based on what you would like from the bank. Wouldn’t you want people in the bank working who have experience in real world business.

I:  Let’s talk about this. Because you’ve actual put on ‘sceptical’ about that point. They’ve all had experience running real business.

S:  I don’t believe they have.

I:  Let's say maybe they haven't all, but they've got a core team say 30 out of 100. They’ve got 30% who have all had real experience in a diverse.

C:  It’s not high enough.

I:  Tell me again how much this lives or falls on this real experience. In terms of their business banking advisors, if a proportion have got it versus all of them have got it. Where has it got to be? You said it’s not enough.

P:  What kind of business would they be in? Previously what kind of business did they work in?

I:  Diverse, basically. A real range of businesses. Assuming that it’s pretty diverse like their customer base is pretty diverse.

IG:  If they're making the claim then it should be 100%.

I:  Can this work if it isn't 100%? This real-world?

C:  No.

I:  So, you're saying no.

D:   I would say yes. Because you can walk into a bank and probably somebody there would have real-world experience.

IG:  Yeah, but the way they're phrasing it. They’re making it sound like they’ve all got it. I don’t like being lied to.

D:  Well that would be hard.

I:  I see what you’re saying. So you’ve got yes, we’ve got two nos. What about you 3 here?

S:  Well, they do say our business banking professionals, so it’s a group within the hires.

I:  So, a group within a group, can that work?

S:  To be called a business banking professional, you’ve had business. But then again they’ve had experience running a business, how successful were they? Do I have more experience than them? I don't know.

I:  Okay, so questions on that one.

A:  Most people don't start a business and then go into banking.

P:  Exactly, that’s the question that I would face too.

A:  Usually, people get into banking, they come straight out of university. They want to be financial advisors, and they learn in school, and they learn from their mentors, and so forth.

I:  But what about if it was true? That they’d had whatever ((INAUDIBLE 2:13:33).

A:  Yeah, if it was true they would be great.

I:  How appealing?

A:  Maybe they should word it like they work with other businesses who have excelled or who they’ve helped to grow to where they are.

I:  What about the rest of you, what do you guys think? So, if they’ve worked with businesses, if they’ve helped businesses out.

C:  Absolutely, those are the people you really want to talk to.

D:  Because everyone has advice. No matter where you go, you'll always get advice.

C:  Even your customers.

D:  Everybody will give you advice, I’ve got three sisters. I walk into a bank and I’ll get advice from… It’s difficult.

I:  Last one. Real-world experience you liked it. But we’ve got blue over here real-world experience.

C:  What’s the whole line?

I:  CIBC business banking, real-world experience for real-world business. So, is the whole line?

C:  We just didn’t like the way it’s worded.

D:  Just like how you guys changed personalised.

IG:  We just don’t like it, doesn’t sound good.

S:  Again, we said we liked real-world experience, we didn’t like real-world business.

C:  I liked real business. Real experience for real business. Or real-world experience for real business.

I:  Can you pin those up. Below 4. Then, the other team can you come over this side and I want you to pin these up for me and then you're both going to do something with them.

PREPARATION

I:  Looking at number 4. Looking at these possible elements of service, again the same thing. What fit with this, fit with you. You can use all the stars, you don’t have to use all the stars, you can put one on every single one or you can put all on one. You’ve got individual ones, it’s an individual response.

PREPARATION

I:  What about this, who put stars on ‘our A-team includes’? 

D:  I think we all did.

I:  What is it about this that fits with this, fits with you?

IG:  It explains what they’re going to do, how they’re going to do it. It’s very appealing because a lot of those sectors or ones I’m unfamiliarly with, so it would be great to have advice on them.

S:  Tax experts to review your account. Imagine that, a tax expert. Would that be free? 

I:  I don't know. Is that the expectation?

S:  Imagine a tax expert to work with your account, that couldn’t be free. At a discounted rate maybe.

I:  Proactive planning, not keen on that? Who starred that?

D:  Catherine. Because I wouldn’t follow it, I wouldn’t pay attention.

I:  Say it once. We’ve got 4 stars on ‘say it once’.  We’ll give you one point of contact and we promise you won’t have to tell your story twice.

IG:   As long as you have this team, you speak to one person and generally they don’t know what you’re talking about. That would be the most (INAUDIBLE 2:20:40).

I:  Did you put a lot of stars on that?

IG:  I put 2.

I:  And then one each?

D:  One each. Catherine put one, I put one. So that’s 4.

I:  So, you liked ‘proactive planning’, yeah?

C:  I think if they are looking for opportunities for me.

I:  Let’s go over here, and then we’re all going to have a nice review of everything. What have we got lots of stars on? So, we're looking at real world experience, and we have 5 on ‘meet you anywhere’.

S:  I put 3 here.

I:  That’s alright that’s fine. So 3 are yours and then one each?

P:  I loaded up a pair on…

I:  You loaded up on ‘business veterans only’?

P:  And industry specialists.

I:  Tell me about ‘meet you anywhere’, ‘business veterans only’, and ‘industry specialists’. What was it about those that appealed?

S:  For meeting anywhere if you have the technology and I can videoconference anyone across the world, why can’t I do it with my bank as well. It would be nice if they came to my office sometimes. I don’t want to travel that much. I hate travelling.

P:  It shows a commitment. They’re charging you a service, now you’re getting something back.

C:  Shouldn’t have to stand in line.

I:  Alex?

A:  Yeah.

I:  What about ‘business veterans’, I know these are possibly more yours, and industry specialists? But I’m guessing the rest of you guys must have put the odd star on as well.

S:  Yeah, it just connects with what they’re trying to say here. That’s why I put the star on it.  They’re talking about real-world experience from people with experience. These 2 cards here talk about how they only hire people with experience, specialist training.

P:   When you walk in and you’re talking, just the demographic, and all the persons going presumably.  They're going to explain this is where I've been, now I'm at the bank, this is what my accomplishments are, here’s where you need to go. From the veteran’s side. And then where it pertains to industry specialists. If you’re in the service sector or if you're in the manufacturing sector you’re totally different animals. Maybe if they can even get more specific than that. Are you on mobile service or what type of service is it. It’s going to be more of an inducement for me to bank with them than with anybody else.

I:  Two you were less keen on. ‘Smart Banking For Business’ and ‘Fresh Talent’. Tell me why? Whoever didn’t put a star on that.

A:  I put fresh talent because it's always good to get a fresh pair of eyes on something, from someone who’s up and coming. They’ve seen things progressing in a certain way and think, “I could do better if I did this.” And they come out of it looking for a chance to improve themselves. They’ve got fresh ideas for your company, whatever your company. Maybe you’ve been doing something for x amount of years, but they’ve got a different idea that could work.

I:  What about the guys who didn't put it down?

P:  Well, I didn’t put it down. I agree with Alex except for not in bank. I like to mentor and bring in interns in my business and do co-op things with the schools.

I:  But not in the bank?

P:  Yeah, I don’t want to go and see the co-op student. I want the senior VP.

I:  You want the veteran. What about you, Sean?

S:  I put a start down here.

I:  For smart bank?

S:  I heard ‘save to spend’, and one of the things that I’m always looking is when can I hire. Now I hired an accountant that meets with me periodically to give me ways of determining that. But if there was a formula, because I’m assuming they make it into a formula, then I’d like that. I didn’t really like this too much.

I:  Fresh talent.

S:  I don’t really see how that works. Then again, you’re giving these student access to all your books which I don’t rate too much.

I:  We've got two more tasks before we go. I’ve given you all some pink hearts, I want you to use one of them. I want you to go around the room, so we've got this idea here, ‘pro-to-pro’, with the service offerings. We've got ‘real-world experience’ here, with the service components again. We've got ‘the power of our network’. And we've got ‘as unique as you are’. You’ve got one vote only with your pink heart. I want you to tell me, which is the root, the position for CIBC business banking that fits with you individual, you and your business. I want you to put the pink heart on, and I want you to write on the pink heart why that’s the one.

PREPARATION

I:  So far, for the backroom, we have 3 hearts on ‘pro-to-pro’.  At the moment we have one heart on ‘real-world experience’.

PREPARATION

I:  We have one on ‘as unique as you are’ and one on ‘the power of our network’. I’m not going to ask you why because I can read why, and I will read those later. Your final task for the day is, you’ve got the opportunity to give the senior management team of CIBC business banking one piece of critical advice. You know what they want to do. They're trying to reposition their bank for you slightly differently to make it better for you, and they want more customer. Simple as that, that's what they're trying to do. They either want more customers or they want you to commit more of your business banking to them. What single piece of advice, based on what we've seen here and what you never trying to do what, what would be the single piece of advice that you as business owners would give them? Just give you a couple minutes to think about this because we want good quality stuff here. I'm just going to ask you to give you me that one single piece of advice, and then I will let you go.

IG:  This pertains to specifically business?

I:   Specifically, their business banking service and what we’ve looked at here today. When you’re all ready then we’ll go.

D:  I would like the bank that have less of a turnover rate with employees. I went to my bak the other day. Where’s Mary? She's gone. Where’s Stan? Gone. Where’s Judy? Gone.

C:  Did they move to another branch?

D:  Yeah, they go to another branch. They're all going in. My bank manager has been there for a while but she’s rarely there.

I:  So, what’s the piece of advice?

D:  Try to keep somebody in the bank for a period of time.  How are they going to get to know everybody, that's the thing? It would be nice to not have such a high turnover rate at a bank, and it appears that is happening a lot in banks. I guess they’re just moving people around.

I:  You’ve definitely already thought of it, because you kept saying. But go on, what’s your piece of advice?

IG:  I bank a lot in the US, in LA, I have business there also. One thing that I've noticed for my business banking that makes it way easier is they have video tellers available. I feel like if CIBC could implement that for business and whatever else, I’ve used it only for business. It was really efficient, didn’t have to wait in line, and got to actually speak to a person on the video monitor who immediately helped me with my banking. With problem whatsoever, instantly. I just thought it was amazing, I was wondering why they don’t have it in Canada.

I:  Just out of interest, do you think that fits with any of these concepts that we looked at?

IG:  I think maybe with the unique approach, because people have different needs for their business. That’s one way you can make yourself offer a unique product for people who don’t have the time, or some people just don’t want to talk face-to-face with other people, but they don't want to go online. This gives you with a happy medium and it’s a unique solution.

I:  Who wants to go next?

S:  I’ll go. I know that CIBC branches have been going more digital, or self-serve friendly, and it really takes away. You don't have all those tellers there, you don’t have a lot more people there. In my circles we're always saying because the older generation, they want to speak to someone, but you know that the older generation is not going to be here forever. So, the younger generation is all digital. But I'm hoping that they don't just downsize the people, they’re re-shifting people or they're educating people and putting them in the positions so that they have more time with clients. Specifically, my business advisor, who I've known for about 7 years, I do talk with her maybe once a year when I have a question when I need something, but I would like for her to take a proactive approach towards looking at ways to help me in my business. Maybe spend some time. I like the video conferencing - like the idea up here - once every quarter or something like that. Maybe giving me ideas on new business strategies or something like that. Just some more interaction from their business team.

I:  Thank you, Alex.

A:  You said one suggestion?

I:  I did, it could be several if you really want to. It’s a piece of advice which might include several bits.

A:  There’s a lot of things we don't like to see. I think if the idea is the same, to draw more people in, I was telling you earlier that CIBC seems and feels a little bit colder compared to the other banks. It almost seems like they only want to deal with high business class type of people and the Imperial Bank or whatever. There's, for example you take Royal Bank, they've got that little guy, it's kind of like a cosier feeling. The guy with the top hat.  TD has got that chair, they have that comfortable feel. CIBC only has that penguin that’s for travel more than it’s for like, “Come join our bank.” People can feel comfortable. People are going to enjoy someone they can feel comfortable with. I feel like CBIC has more of a cold feel to it.

S:  Generic feel.

D:  Better mascot.

A:  They need a better mascot.

I:  Looking again at these 4 roots. Which of those 4 do you think moves you a bit more towards that way of feeling a bit more relaxed, a bit more comfortable, bit more engaging.

A:  Maybe this one for the connections. If they can emphasize how they can connect you to the world to, to each other, and everyone there liked to emphasize ‘together we grow’. Because we’re all in it together, let's help each other to be successful. That would be my opinion.

I:  Thanks, Alex. Patrick?

P:  With regard to what can the bank, if I could say a senior manager what would you do best. One change you can make, manager resources. So that you're not spending your money necessarily on, I would say I would direct the money towards offering… Somebody mentioned here earlier about not wanting to have their current account or their business banking mixed with their personal. I think it's integral. I think it's important. As a business grows and it has cash what to do with it? I think the bank has a perfect opportunity there to come to - nobody from the CIBC has ever come to me and say, “For 20 years you ran your bank in the red, you've been in the black for the last 5. Now you're making a ton of dough let us help you.” They’ve never come and said you’ve got a pile of dough let's spread it around. But I've had to take that initiative myself and they lost that business. I would have been all over. It’s such a simple thing, they’ve got the data there. I'm sure they do it but maybe they should lower their threshold when they start doing it. Because by the time I came, I flew out of there under the radar with my dough and I parked my money elsewhere. So that might be. Another thing too, and this is way off the other side of it, they’re not very good marketers.

C:  I can add to that, actually.

P:  Name a fancy building named after the CIBC.

C:  Or an event.

P:  They don't attach themselves. The TD attaches themselves to cultural events.

C:  Scotia Bank, BMO.

P:  The other banks. BMO is all over the sporting side of it.

I:  What difference does that make to you as business people? When you see these other banks.

C:  Well they’re making a lot of money of us.

P:  You asked for advice, not for my success but for their success.

I:  I know but I’m clarifying. Because I’m interested in what difference that makes to you, as individuals, to see that level of promotion or marketing.

IG:  It’s a better image for the company. Which in turn makes you feel like your money is going to a good place.

I:  Somebody mentioned philanthropy.

D:  Yes, I did.

C:  I work as an art dealer and I’ve sold paintings to TD Bank, I’ve sold paintings to BMO.  I haven’t sold to Scotiabank or CIBC, but Scotiabank sponsors Nuit Blanche, which is one of the biggest art events in the city, it’s a huge thing. Like you said, names on sporting fields, BMO Field and all that kind of stuff, that CIBC.

D:  Run for the Cure.

C:  Oh yeah, Run for the Cure, that was happening just Saturday.

D:  RBC's into Golf, they do the Canadian Open.

C:  RBC has a painting competition.

P:   Wel they’ve got billions in profits, they’ve got to spread it around.

C:   They’ve got to spread it around, they’ve got to give back to the community.

IG:  But would you choose your bank based just on that?

D:  How much money they give away? Sure.

C:  I haven’t, obviously because I’m with CIBC, but I also have products with RBC.

A:  I think for your business you go whichever company is going to give you the best kickback or advice or support.

C:   Sometimes it’s just too complicated to switch.

A:  Yeah there’s a certain feel that you get, almost like pride of ownership. I’m part of this bank because they do this, and I feel good about that.

C:   Run for the Cure is important.

I:  Right, Catherine, your one piece of advice.

C:  I guess just more transparency, and I like the idea of calling me up and saying, “Listen I think we should have a meeting and talk about what better products you could be using.” Or, “We could get you a lower interest rate credit card.” I can do that myself,  I’ll phone companies and say, “I don't like this card anymore.” And then they’ll give me. All you have to do is ask and they’ll give it to you.

D:  They’re reactive, they’re not proactive.

I:  Final clarification with you, Catherine. What do you mean by transparency?

C:  Transparency in terms of how much they're charging me. And that they closed my account without warning me. At the time it was a really embarrassing situation and there was no need for that to happen.

D:  Inactive after 6 months or something like that.

C:  Not enough money in it or whatever. But I have somebody about to throw $40,000 into it and they have to go through hoops. Frustrating.

I:  Right, thank you ever so much everyone. It’s been very much appreciated.

D:  Nice meeting you.

I:  Nice meeting you guys as well. Have a good trip back, I hope it hasn't been too torturous for you. Really appreciate it, thanks for your help. And you’ve all got your money importantly? I just checked that it’s all okay. As you go out you will almost certainly have to sign for it. Take your names off for heaven’s sake.

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