I don't think Matt and I shall say anything to you that I wouldn't say to anybody else great I think it'd be useful if you start off by telling us I'm not a hundred percent sure where you're currently chairman or whether you're going to be chairman or what the time scales are and what your background is in terms of becoming chairman and so on that be useful to think first to understand you know anything about me I have a feeling but I may be entirely wrong that you used to be chairman of children in need yeah inter Alia okay no I just didn't really bother to look me up before he picks up the phone yes you have lots of lots of corporate organizations as well but you have now okay I think I'm now officially chairman because I shared a three-day conference Street for mind but I was appointed in the end of July so I've been doing a day or two a week since then you know me stick Roofing going to know doing stuff I've had two national organizations before I turned totally need for decorated and our church Brown what federation's moment years I've also been audit for all of business which is one of the princes trusts I've been oh Christ loads of them most of them grow those so that one's okay and was there a trustee at the age of 15114 so I've basically been a trustee or various organizations since the age of 15114 and of course species of children in need is I got to put my nose into 15099,15298 try to partner supper no more about track is most great good and with mind an area in issue had particular interest in is it you have personal experience do you have professional right okay great good it would have been useful for us to explain what we're doing yeah so we are doing a review of kind of the Mind brand how it seen by various different people where are a small research company that we specialize in Charities we only work with not-for-profits and what we have been asked to do is look at all the different stakeholder groups that there is budget for us to explore and find out what they think about mind and how they see mental health and how they see mind in that mental health landscape and try and come to some conclusions about the the overall perspectives of mind and where it should go next and so to that end we have done online surveys with a thousand people with mental health problems themselves thousand people who are carers and friends and family of people with mental health problems and a thousand members of the general public and we're about to do a survey to all staff members both of national minds and local mines and then we're doing what we think are going to be about 15128 metre when you do mine sorry please make sure that you include some retail colleagues when you do that I talked to the director of retail this morning and I'm presuming they will all be within the retail will retail members of Staff will be within the staff email before listing on the the internet so I'm hoping it reaches well okay variable actually quite often they're not okay well we'll we'll make sure I'm just asking you to double-check it for my Personal Agenda items okay great yeah and so then we're doing about 15133 interviews like this with people from nothing all of the senior management team and then people in different parts of the organization and I think about eight or ten Chief Executives of local mines as well to see what they think the only get and I hope that they have given you a range of local mines that isn't just about scale it's about my potions engagement yes we haven't been given the names yet they can I can I request that when you are you are asked the executive to make sure that you have some who are Advocates of the Federation and some that aren't okay yeah yeah you go range of otherwise it's going to be in an echo chamber yes do do we I think the names at least in part so far I've come from the local mind Network Conference was it LOL all of those will be engaged but listen because they bother to come to the conference yet okay okay well we're not trying to teach you how to suck eggs I'm just I'm probably more aware of some of it in because you're not there yet sometimes the less senior execs they may not be that might not be top of mind for them correct oh we will no no they have a mechanism for measuring the engaged in this but try and get them to delve deep for the simple things like you know if they bother to go to the network leaders conference they you know quicker returning do they bid for money you know are they using all of the materials that Florence and services produces yeah okay they will know absolutely which ones are engaged and which ones aren't if they ask the network exec so I'm just making everything Sherlock Holmes isn't disconnected from the rest of the organization which sometimes they are no and you're raising a note of worrying me because all our people coming by the comms team right and so we may need to make sure we dig a pit and and those thousand people with lived experience I hope they are not all mind members no no this is taken from absolutely the opposite there's taken from a very large panel of people who will my guess the majority of whom will have no contact with mind whatsoever perfect perfect yeah thrilled we're very happy to talk you through the results they promised him a book appropriate moment that be useful if you want to start off and tell us a little bit particularly with your sort of fresh eyes on the Mind national and local family what your perception is of the Mind brand and mind as an organization and how it's getting its message across its image its reputation how that's coming across gosh if you really got five hours but what will stop at four and a half yeah great that question down for me about to bigger question of me specifics okay what is your been impression of the way that mind manages its brand from the internal think do you think it's an asset that is actively managing for the biggest benefit to the organization from what you've seen so far I think that there is a slight disconnect internally between what Martin's the brand is and for most people they mean the logo the typeface the you know illustration versus real people the squiggle the colors you know the you know the brand monitor yeah and although I'm not a great lover of the real photography I am a huge lover of The Branding devices that we use particularly illustration not I don't dislike the colorways I'm not a huge fan of the tagline for better mental health that you know I can live with it absent something else I think that there is a big attempt on branding police bucks again less good at making sure that individual local mines websites authentic in the way that they are you know a derivative if you like of the Mind National website so I think we've got lots more work to do on that but I think that's a that's a Central Services issue it's not a local mind issue per se because I don't think we make it easy for people that's a night that sort of basic it and infrastructure which has been dealt with so I am hopeful that that works I think in terms of everything that comes out of Central Services in Stratford and Cardiff and note I use some Services rather than HQ or national mind because my view is that they are a service provider supporting the local mines which are Direct Delivery I think that 15197% of the time they are consistent and the tone of voice is good and appropriate do you think somebody said to me in one of the interviews that they felt there was a brand police rather than a brand Empower my that's why is that that's why I just use that term yes and I just wondered whether you think there is the ability for them to be more empowering to use the brand as a tool to do even greater things is that a potential they could be doing more to exploit well I think that you know you're coming back to the point I made most people when they talk about Minds The Brand mean it physical manifestation I think that when we talk about and I don't I don't know whether you come on to discuss what the core is but you know I think that when you are trying to pull together a disparate set of offerings you know a brand is about consistency we don't have consistency of physical offer in our minds we don't even have consistency of physical offer in our mind retail and that's probably where most people see the physical manifestation of a brand because many of our local mines are off High Street behind return is on High Street and therefore you know we've got 15348 very large poster sites but I think we could make more use of do you think there's consistency if you take away the sort of visual side of the brand do you think there's consistency in the values the messaging the underlying philosophy that comes across no matter which bits of mind you come into contact with no absolutely not because the physical manifestation of what the brand offer is is localized that's the Federation through it is of a core product that one through there is a Nike or offer and therefore t stop talking about and I would be but for me you know my starting point are things like expert and professional and respectful and campaigning and all of those good words and I think that when you talk about mind the organization generally it's about people it's not about being ill and I think the broad family of individual local mines have a local author for local people delivered by local people effing following the money often in the jigsaw puzzle of what else is going on in the mental health landscape in that area yeah so by definition they are all individual and different and in scale from you know probably 15108 million turnover the biggest 15298,15098 turn over the smallest to one man and a dog literally to you know 15298 people and trying to get consistently you know all mines must be within that and I mean the physical offer I don't mean the you know the admins gloss on top of it the physical offer is very difficult to harmonize and make consistent when they are so very different I think where you can have consistency as in all the Soft Stuff they were was respectful we're always understanding where always carrying all of that stuff that's all well and good but that's a bit you know apple pie to me so you should they be going through quite a process then to really firm up the consistency of that physical offering despite her I don't think it's possible to do in a federation structure what about within the national mind just so you know I'm not a big fan of that separation of national mind is one thing and local mind as a mother I think we've got bit of be very careful that we are a federation and the Federation is made up of a national mind and was local mines yeah together one mind so what is what would be the next step in the process because of the physical stuff is very difficult to make I don't know what what the end I don't want know what the end objective of your process is well apparently what your output is in that facetiously Joe I don't know what is this output we would hope is a series of recommendations to the senior managers mind saying okay we're you know this is what we've thought through all of these groups and these are the things that people have told us that they want to be changed and prove tightened you know for example you know I suspect one of the things that may come out is that the Mind brand comes across as quite cold it's the deep blue is not a warm color it's not a human brand and so on so the output of our process will be to do a lot of work to come listen to lots of people and then pull of all that together look at some of our experience with branding you know with them a whole range of different organizations and say okay these are the kinds of things that we think you know your task with the Mind brand should be over the next five to ten years kind of thing that's the kind of output I'm imagining we find different organizations you know stopping the punch then KU given us the evidence or we'd love your recommendations and we haven't got to that bit in the process yet mine says hard to know exactly how much was your sponsor so our key client is Annabelle Davis who's the head of communications you know her add meta and then on the research side Jacob diggle is no idea yeah so that's the person but I'm talking to Paul Farmer tomorrow morning so all of the sea a management team know what's going on absolutely yeah that was that that wasn't my question it was his brief to and what's the output that they're expecting yeah yeah very good so you know kind of part of our objective is to see what people are telling us they would like to have happen so I think the only thing I would say has been definitively told us is not really up for grabs in any meaningful sense is the name itself but I think everything else you know we've been told is fair game to ask about and there are debates about and so on and so on from the for better mental health tag line to the management of the brand in a people sense and a consistency sense to the relationships between when I say as a sort of chatter all right girl I you know I think the logo and the illustrating to the design I think the typefaces that we use are excellent and I would fight you tooth and nail to change any of that I think the the way that we use you know portrait photography is exclusive probably three people who are no I was going to be I was going to be suspicious and so I find that exclusive I find them cold I find it isolating you know choosing a single person to represent an issue is always a nightmare because you're going to you know something includes for us personally find you know they've got a brilliant and well-established and Incredibly well recognized branding device in the illustration style particularly in the messy swirl and the way that the messy swirl is used in other illustrations so I would I don't think that we will see change their under my tenure what about the warmth of the blue well and the general humanness do you think that mind comes across as a I don't think putting humans in a in communication makes it human no I do that more but if you take and the comparison that somebody had with me this morning was they took the some MacMillan and the MacMillan nurse and you know they said McMillan feels like an organization which has humans at the other end of it they probably have that very helpful you know emblem of the MacMillan nurse and they worried that mind doesn't feel like an organization which has humans and is warm and approachable and caring in the way that it feels to the outside world and now that's partly I think and I think caring and compassionate and understanding and respectful and you know the think I said at the start you know about people not about being ill I would hope that all of that comes through in what we do in communication I think you're asking a hell of a lot of you know a logo and brand design you know to fill that Gap I think that you know again I'm pretty old school that you know your first criteria is to get seen and noticed and I think mind is seen and noticed I think the brand is very difficult branding devices are very distinctive and we should play with them at our Peril okay one of the things I think is driving this particular review is a worry that the sort of the Zeitgeist is for mental health issues at the moment the Mind may not be exploiting in the public mind in its awareness in it in its ability to rise with the tide of mental health issues being being a prominent amongst what politicians talk about what the public think about more and more people and kind of you know saying Yep they're there their mental health challenges that need sorting out the the Mind may not be making the most of this moment in the Sun as I think somebody called it you think that's a fair assessment or do you think actually I don't I think that we've been incredibly good and it's before my time from taking their credit for it incredibly good at you know the rising tide lifting our ship I think that we need to be incredibly careful one of our one of our Prime brand principle is that we do not compromise it I think it's our job to own the sector I think there are lots of other people working in the sector not least the NHS you know who are doing very good work I think we need to pick our battles appropriately I think we have you know amongst the decision makers I think that we have an incredibly high profile and would be absolutely number one in you know if you are going to engage with you know invest Commerce the mental health industry you can't do it without engaging mind I think from the other side of the so I think from policymakers and campaigning and partnership organizations were absolutely on the top of that tree I think Paul Farmer you know interestingly is a strong brand in his own right in the center which is both strength and a weakness yeah or potential weakness because you like they're evil yeah I think he has a very strong personal brand yeah and the third sector and be in public health and in mental health in particular so I think we have a couple of inverted commas personal brands of which call is the strongest I think locally we have maybe a dozen really strong local Brands the work that's happening up in Manchester is a good example of that where the five or six local Minds come together to have a relationship with burner with Andy Burnham so I don't think I would except that I think that when you're talking about fundraising and working with corporate partners you know if you have any if you have any lived experience at all you will have heard of mind yeah I think that if you are just generally oh you know my friend friend killed himself I'm going to run the marathon for I think mind is probably the first one that you'll come to I think when you're talking about wild workplace well-being again I would put mind pretty front and center on a national level but when you're talking about you know corporate Partnerships particularly charity of the Year status you know it's both a strength and a weakness to be that big because quite often organizations want to help smaller churches that don't have if you like access to exams and you know it is a anybody who is knowledgeable in the sector is going to go straight to the annual report see that we've got 15117 million hours of reserve and go they don't need my money okay D do you think then that there are areas so if the tide is rising that mind is rising with it and you know who knows how long the tide will stay risen for all their things that mind should be doing while The Tide is High you know the incomes just come in as higher than ever before from them from you know for Stratford and Cardiff other things that they should be doing like the investing in the brand in whatever sure whether it's the people side of things with there's the advertising side of things whether it's the I mean people we are at where are investing in exponentially my viewers I would rather invest in the local my networks and I would in inverted commas above the line advertising and you know I say that as a fellow of the IPA yeah and do you think the relationship them with the local mines is good enough do you think it's strong enough to undergo laser work to be done there and it is that on both sides is that because the car different Stratford haven't done a good enough job of engaging local mines or is that because the local my jock about engaging like a minds I think that there is a sort of you know there is always in every organization that I've ever been involved with and I suspect every organization on the planet there is a head office knows best Mantra which is patently not true you know there are wonderful centers of excellence around the network I think that and I'm exaggerating to make a point here rather than he ain't getting off from work on the expertise in the network I don't think is well especially well regarded in the service centers in Stratford and called us and and equally because you know it can be seen as patronising I don't think that many of them local mines either have the time or the stretch to see anything beyond the oh my God all they do is you know put on another 15118 people who are you if I could have my life would be conformed yeah you know all they take their hoovering up all the money because of brand awareness people don't know that local mines you know fundraise separately as well you know all of the money is going to essentially not enough of it's coming out again but that's an internal problem not a brand problem I know that resource allocation and and I don't think from what you're saying there are specific brand issues in terms of local mines being a little bit different because you're saying that's the authenticity that you know makes those local organizations real I think the you know we've got a hundred and thirty-eight organizations in the my network and I probably only seen 15118 of them so far yeah Tina is really inspired by the people you know all very different all incredibly different in terms of the service they offer and the scale of the operation but all of them incredibly passionate incredibly incredibly people-centric and you know I take my hat off because they're living hand-to-mouth whereas centrally money comes in and it's more than enough they also seeing their income increase with the rising tide mental health issues in the way that National Central mind is doing lightly different because they are seeing a rise in most of my Life by percent of the income for local mines comes from controversial provision right okay yeah but it just means that a local Health mental health budget has gone up they are being asked to provide more services yeah okay but yes there is but but but again minded Stratford is very disingenuous in presenting charts showing that local mines have increased faster than National mind but that's because you put retail in there and you know the retail environment is you know flat and because they put retaining growth it's disproportionate interesting okay and when you look at that chart if you have seen that chart it is disingenuous in my view and shouldn't be used and what do people say when you tell them that they go oh yeah it's sort of it tells the story in a way that you know the team currently want to set tolls but it won't be told that way for much longer right right okay disingenuous it for different saying he will let you know that you know our income is going up exponentially but actually it's going up so the mules that's actually not true yeah yeah do you think be looking at net income not gross income do you think mine should aspire to be and in the same league as in terms of the the sort of awareness levels as the macmillan's DNS pcc's the rspca is and the other sort of top 15108 of national nationally known Charities is that a way for it to go higher it gets there and I think if you like it awareness as a means to an end not an end in itself I would absolutely be very proficient awareness that we've got a direct link between many RCM favorability yeah I think that you know I don't need people to understand our internal structure I don't need people to understand its Federation don't need people to understand that local mind and Retail mind and National mind are different I repeat you know there is one mind brand and that's the entry point people into mental health help and services yeah so if you were wanting to put you know a number of things in people's heads when they did come into contact with my what kind of things would you want them to go away understanding about mind however they came into contact with with it well you know my name and I think that mine has to be a very has to the mind umbrella has to cover a very broad Church from you know and I'm going to get the numbers wrong so if you give me from one in twelve severe and enduring mental health problems we've got to be there for acute to the whatever we claim it is one in four people experience some sort of mental ill health in any single year to the will actually will be assisted by and therefore we are for all the people all of the plan yeah so I think that that umbrella needs to cover everything from you know awareness of stigma for people who are very lucky and and and and have robust mental good health two very very severe mental ill health which becomes very disabling and I think that that the respect parts of the brand the respectful of lived experience is as important as the assistance and the help side of the balance yeah and I think that when we are campaigning and the campaigning happens centrally I mean it's not done locally so if you local is you know direct service National is about setting the backdrop for that respect and find posting where to get help in about enabling it's not about Direct Delivery the network is about Direct Delivery not about campaigning yeah Federated structures are complex Brands nine years and I have groundwork of it taught me nothing else taught me that and when you look at those different sort of groups of people that the from the severe acute to though one in for potentially was some kind of lived experience how do you think how do you do you think mind is in those people's Consciousness to different degrees do you get the impression that actually mind is done a better job with the severe in acute or the the people who've got in a reason to look up on the website there is not a consensus to key policy makers and health professionals will know but mine does a lot of work with severe in a cute yeah and crisis a lot of the local mines a lot of the Michael Minds concentrate on counseling and talking therapies and they tend to be I'm making a gross exaggeration now they tend to be for the less severe yeah they tend to be coping mechanisms there's an awful lot of preventative work that goes on you know social prescriptions of you know these are five things you can do to prevent anxiety to prevent depression etc etc a lot of the work we do in in workplace well-being is prevention and Auntie Sigma so you know you got a bold start from I liken it when I'm you know trying to make sense of it myself to how the bloody hell would you rather have single organization that was about physical health yeah no indeed such a very good point covers everything from the covers every disease every illness every therapy and prevention and cure and living with and then add that that and I mean you would just say well that's nonsense patiently we can't there are you know that literally tens of thousands or physical health care Charities and organizations and so is that I'm still trying to get my head round the the enormity of the ask of having a single Focus for the entirety of mental health and well-being and I would I think that's really really interesting point I would then look as a cancer research UK and see the way that it is attempted to compete with all of the individual cancer Charities that have you know if you have the best Cassidy and I thought of think that the word compete with in the third sector landscape is should be enough former particularly in research because research should be collaborative Collective you know the whole is greater than the sum of the parts so I have a lot of problem with you know that if you like the fragmenting of issues into charters but in the world of fundraising in the world of PR in the world of weekend of getting an MPS or ministers or a policy makers here then if you're you know the point you're making but there are a hundred and seventy thousand characters here but so I'm one of one of the ways then if if you take that color is it realistic to have people if you had somebody who had schizophrenia would you go to mind or a specialist schizophrenia organization if you have somebody with severe depression well because there isn't a credible severe schizophrenia there's whatever it's called releasing I want to say rethink is it rethink yeah but started out as a national schizophrenia like they yeah they moved away from that yeah and they're now a generalist Mental Health RC but the Mind brand could be one in which you had a number of sub Brands specifically designed to appeal again I wouldn't be a fan of that I think it's hard enough with us having time to change as a sub-brand there was going to be one of my next question is actually about time to change but the so you you having posed a conundrum of how does mind reach all of that incredible Spectrum the solution isn't necessarily to begin to get develop specialisms you know so let's say our research comes out so we do do specialisms we do specialisms in research we do programmatic we do different campaigns on different platforms and we do each with authority and expertise and professionalism we don't campaign on anything about which we are not knowledgeable yeah well that we can't add value or indeed that somebody else can do better but in nothing that we've seen does it say right we we've seen a weakness in the number of people who come to us for you know severe depression and therefore we have got to have you know an aspect of our brand is you know we we are the biggest challenge hold on when you say that you come to us for advice on what to do about severe depression centrally or who walk into their local mind and say help me because those two things are very different you know what I'm I'm I'm not actually citing we I'm saying if hypothetically there was a group who the current way that mind comes across wasn't engaging as much as it should do or could do because it didn't think mind was for them is that something that the organization should be trying to tackle my my perfume research suggests that mind is an entry point for all things Mental Health and therefore particularly the info line which to be honest I haven't yet visited I'm going to visit on Monday but I have tried phoning it you know I've got a few trial calls to shop at oh yeah you know I think it's you know it's pretty General if you have if you have had the time to go through the website the information is extraordinarily good yeah it's very easy to find it's very clear it's written in plain English it's all about giving people choices and I couldn't be more proud of it yeah excellent yeah okay and that's what you know you know many in many terms mind is the entry point for all things I would hate to see you know mind bipolar month schizophrenia mine went well but you know all of that sub-brands no that wouldn't get through me at the board no but I guess if you take the sort of cancer research example cancer researchers spent quite a lot of time saying you know in a very sort of non-competitive way but it has very deliberate pointless so saying you know we fund you know eight million pounds worth or whatever it is a breast cancer each year you know and very clearly giving the message that you know it knows an awful lot about breast cancer is very strong area but is trying to kind of identify the particular things that it knows people want to talk about rather than just saying count generically and so I guess I know cancer isn't generic is it there are 15140 different types of cancer so for the noise man help but I think also most people don't realize it cancer research UK is basically a grant maker not sure that changes how the brand needs or does come across doubt but I'll keep Ali you could say it's a very lazy way of giving to give to cancer UK cancer research UK because if you particularly want to support what her ovarian cancer or breast cancer or liver cancer or like one of the smaller keeping to Max might be a place where doing it I don't know I'm anticipating but you know in truth most people don't think about their most individuals don't think very long and hard about who they get through yeah they give to people who ask them but they've heard all that they've got a direct connection with the number of people who build it to look up you know how much of this is actually spent on admin or fundraising or how much the chief exec ins or you know whether it's inefficient organizer none yeah I gave to the brand the brand maybe the charity frequently the brand is Helen Kolcraft happens to be fundraising for XYZ charity I love her I trust her therefore I give you remember the human brand is more important if you like and in that circumstance than the than the charity bread absolutely you mentioned a moment ago time to change do you how do you think that fits with the rest of of Mind do you think it's a helpful to have it as a sort of part of mind but actually not always very clearly branded as wait no I think I did the classic example of the subjugation of I'm going to say hatred is not hatred but the subjugation of problem and the pursuit of cash you know the money was given jointly for a joint campaign jointly run by two organizations and the two organizations make the best of it without which each of them rather have it as a single brand of course they would and do you think anything can be done about the current situation about to run out that's largely irrelevant okay okay fine I think I got another year to go and took their a second thought okay so in terms of the different things and I'm conscious of your time other things that act talk about I did say I could talk about this for the next five hours indeed indeed and it may be what useful from our point of view is to come back when were kind of further through the process and tell you a little bit more about what's coming out and then you can tell us what you think of some of those ideas we need to be careful though because I will naturally edit you know a I'm a clapped-out old yeah appetizing and boxing person and comes person and and Beyond the new chairman so I've got very strong views on what we should and shouldn't be doing yeah no I think lesser you know whoever Jamie is or Annabella whatever whatever they want to do will have to get through me first indeed well that that Annabelle can engage with that one when she's presented with it so if you were putting together a wish list of the things that you would like to change about come mind and the way it comes across internally or externally you know what kind of things would be on that whistling it's nice he's at the moment our internal rather than external yeah I mean you know as I say I don't like the photography the way that that's done you know certain of the other pieces of columns that we do you know oh my God I could have written that in that cell for I'm going to make to do it or whatever but it's really not how I imagined it because I think that our external brand is competent relatively coherent and certainly so for me it's a crisis it's not high on my to-do list I think the internal issues for me a much bigger and particularly those around how you make the Federation stronger than stronger than the sum of its parts how do you get all of the pieces of the Federation working well together how you smash down the silos both in Stratford and Cardiff and sort of Insider that's within certain Colour so you know I'll be very disappointed about Annabelle haven't been to the network people saying give me a list of the really recall for Trump's mind locals because I want them included in the research exercise yeah but you know it's only 15148 15148 that she would have thought of that indeed it is if you were putting together a list of your top five priorities as an incoming chair do you think working on the brand would be on that list now what about the top ten maybe yep because the brain is an important part of what we're doing but of say at the moment I'm looking at stuff that's broken and and the brand at the moment doesn't look broken to me okay yeah I might have a few cracks in it but it's definitely not broken yeah yeah and and I think you're also saying there are some very clear sort of non-negotiables that you wouldn't change as well within the can't brand architecture and be made on the basis it was matter imagine what any research would throw up that would make me would make me sacrifice familiarity and consistency over time and although we might get a bit bored with stuff you know we see all day every day slight any campaign no client always balls with it first but that I mean you know you've worked as I'm sure you know clients get bored with clothes and indeed the agency gets bored with a campaign eons before any consumer group does no no I've said to people when you're sick to the piece of it the public out there might just about the beginning to regret it it's the repetition repetition yeah I mean but equally I don't think anybody would notice that range of For Better Mental Health and there may be a better and all encapsulating descriptor that would help what about some of the kind of core messages that it wants to get across to you have any sense that they're the sort of things that you know resonate with people you know what might have a really good question I'm not sure I could answer what the core messages are okay well I'm going to learn what let me tell you they're on they're on my list of questions but even then tell me what you think about them so the ones we've been told of the kind of cool ones are we won't give up until every one experiencing a mental health problem gets both support and respect right well the first one that you will get from local market some local mines on that is everyone experience a mental health problem versus everyone yeah you know because that excludes people who are who are you're not yet diagnosed or who are who haven't yet experienced and the friends and family of how do you how do you do anti-stigma work when you know etc etc so that might not be inclusive in us okay we provide advice and support to empower anyone experiencing a mental health problem we can paint improve Services raise awareness and promote understanding yeah that's that's mine Stratford and Cardiff and it excludes the network that's an exclusive statement of the service center excluding Direct Delivery yeah we can that's fine if you're trying to describe what Stratford does but I would refer I would prefer to have something we support our local network by I guess what the May hope these messages do is make people go God you don't smoke unless you know I'm assuming that's a good thought about them I'll go and talk to them because they're the kind of organization who might you know be able to give me some support etc etc so I think they hope it's a message that will resonate with people and think I must contact their organization because I could do with help support advice or my shorter son whatever yeah we believe no one should have to face a mental health problem alone yep okay people need mind more than ever and thanks to us more and more people are getting support when they desperately need it again you have to be careful not to be all encompassing they need mental health support more than ever mind is you know a minnow in a massive see I used to say exactly the same thing about children in need you know a 15163 million has to be put in the context of the six and a half billion pounds child care services budget yeah yeah yeah so I think you know we have to have a degree of perspective on what we can and can't do and we also have to have a degree of humility about what else is going on in the sector and you know yeah yeah okay is there any as we haven't talked about unconsciously covered a lot and Consciousness there's a whole range of issues that we haven't yet got to go through because we're in talked to a few people anything else from your point of view you think is relevant on the brand Journey or the brand issue I think she's not gone it's gone tell me to call her back yeah I got them I'm just trying to find the we dial yep I'll be two seconds Nadia it's rainy out there hello hello hi hi sorry about that don't know what happened there I would never Grant I think so you probably just put the phone down not me not me I was really just asking there any other things from your point of view about about the brand and how you see it now I would midd rant on we've got to be humble about what we claim yep the last word I wrote down was humility yeah because as I say when two princes and a princess stand up and talk about heads together that does more for you know the possibility of understanding that mental health can or mental fragility can affect anybody you know anything that mind can do yeah so it's the totality of the landscape that we have to be cognizant of yeah how powerful do you think the kind of messages you know they get the right ones and they work on them and do you think developing the messages and is a useful thing you know probably because it can be spread out you can have ones that are better for the direct Service delivery or the the you know people who have learned to go into the you know the brand police but doesn't it when you're talking about mines this is how you describe it yeah we're there for everybody blah blah blah we do this blah blah blah it's part of the script when you're talking rather than the individual campaigns that we do and I want I was one of those things to what extent it is a script that you particularly exactly what it is it's the grip better to get use is the real issue is it used scripture is a kind of that's what Bland police saying that actually this is where I think it's useful is in their repetition repetition repetition yeah so you know when I'm making a speech or when I'm talking after dinner or were even when I meet people in the streets you know what is mine do obviously don't use that language but I use that sentiment yeah yeah yes and I think when you're you know when you're writing a press release or you're writing a report using that type of language helps explain what we're here for and why we're not giving up yeah absolutely so I don't count that as you know inverted commas comes messages you know that's just part of the brand book that tells you the type of lingua Franca you know I see I think it's more important that every single person in the place never says commit suicide right okay because it does it a lot of oxygen yeah that to me is a core message and I think that you know if we if we're Vigilant in that you know he killed himself not he committed suicide then other people stop using it yeah yeah so those type of messaging and that type of branding is important but I think you know that sector-specific rather than mine specific but mind is the market leader it's the biggest mental health charity and you know therefore if it's not the biggest mental health provider that's the NHS no no but it is the one that's going to campaign on the issues and it is the audience it's much more likely than then it's just a lot of thought to say we should use this language not language that looks unit tests us say that okay okay okay which is why I said it's more industry-specific yeah yeah okay anything else we're not told about it seems real I'm cognizant of the fact that you said it's in a bandage on one of your top priorities which I think is a very useful thing fresh understand and it will be an extraordinary thing for most people can hear it from my background yeah yeah but I say that only not because I don't think it's important not because I don't think that actually what binds us certainly as The Branding if not the brand because it's quite hard to have brand that doesn't have a consistent output yeah a consistent product we don't have a consistent product but what we do have is an umbrella brand that binds the family together and tone of voice that's appropriate and I think one of the things you've come across quite strong as saying is you don't think the umbrella is good enough it doesn't include all the parts of the family in parts of it do I think that I think the visual identity is excellent yeah you know it can't be at what you say about blue being cold and caveat what I say about when you use portrait photography it's as exclusive as it is inclusive do you do P Smiley after the event I'm better or do you do miserable head in hands showing single people does that make you isolated versus showing groups of people while does is that off-putting that's why I find the illustrations not much stronger because the individual can participate they see in it yeah yeah okay well that's personal you know I think whoever did the typeface library is a genius genius I think that's absolutely excellent and really well thought through and is a sort of classic is a classic piece of you know brand engineering so so I think there are lots of good bits I think that the challenge of not having fixed output is always a challenge and you know coming back to the cut but the core issue of you know we are a charity for the entirety of mental health and mental well-being imagine how hard it would be to have a physical yeah yeah yeah so I don't pretend it easy but equally I think what we are probably more forward critical of ourselves than maybe we should be because to the outside world there's consistency of don't lie as identity hmm and some really interesting and useful identity Mart funny enough I'm not a fan at the blue not because I think it was cold but because I think it looks a bit it's a bit of an old fashion color she's a Marine Corps for its reestablishment color the blue yeah but when I go away from Blue no apparently for the pragmatic reason that we've got a hundred thirty shots and I'm not going to spend 15118 grand rebranding each of them no no what about broadening the color palette so the again I prefer a narrow palette Hill one friend okay okay again you know that's that's one person for you okay that's what I know that I've been quite directive on a couple of occasions today please try and not allow me to be because I left my own devices I tell you what to write in the report well we'll see what other people say and if everyone else agrees used will be easy but everyone else says but for bending the world we must change the blue then you know that's what we have it all so you then have you then have the age-old Twitter problem that everybody's voice is equal and I would posit that they're not and one of the challenges in any bit of research like this in any kind of pressure changes whose voices carry the most weight so yeah exactly I think the thing one of the reasons we are very keen to do a big quantity of exercise is to make sure that we had rooted in our understanding of how people see mind some really big quantitative research to some of those issues but I had to get value from that yeah well I hope to so to anyway great good I'm really looking forward to seeing it I'd love to I'd love to meet up plus I have a property brief wherever you basic me you didn't have time to look me up I did have time to look you up and I was really impressed with it great good whereabouts you based fucking hell okay easy great well now we can suddenly come across at the point which is right yeah I'm in Stratford at a week at least and and I travel the country or I'm in Manchester a lot because I share a couple of things for the cult group right okay I you know I'd share a company in Birmingham so I'm all over the place Grand well thank you very much indeed for time Steve it's been really really useful from our point of view thank you for letting me Ransom to thank you for stopping me an hour in rather than five hours in a very good to talk very good to talk all right hello just accent speaking very excited and are not letting that keep the line going to die oh my goodness it's really hot oh my goodness there's a point about six minutes in there which I just saw that if we just wrap it up now oh my goodness just let me rest turn this thing off great good good would it be useful if I explained a bit about what the project is or do you know enough about it as it stands it would be so yes and maybe no bit about it but yeah so we're so what we have been asked to do is to look at the Mind brand and that that's the sort of Fairly wide ranging brief and to that end we've done some three sets of quantitative surveys to a thousand members of the general public a thousand people with mental health problems and a thousand people are friends and family we've done a bit of desk research to find out what mind has done up until now there's actually stuff so really went out on Friday that I think he's gay out through your Internet to both national and local mines and then we've done a couple of little pieces of work on with young black men and men aren't engaging with mental health problems and then we're doing a number of interviews like this with both national and local mines with staff and trustees the trustees are an international mind and very much at this stage we haven't been given a steer about what the issues are that anybody would like to look at rather were trying to see what everyone tells us that the issues that said I don't need anyone's talking about name change and it's just very much about trying to you know what are the issues that people would look to what would make the Mind band fit for purpose for the next few years based on people's perceptions of you know from those of them with mental health problems to those who are on the also dealing with things yeah okay and how far you've done the member of these interviews already have you with yes yes yes starting on your new chair downwards all right and the you talked about the thousands of mental health thousand friends and family I didn't quite catch the other one thousand general public general public that will happen as well yes that's happened already yeah I can great good do you want to start off by telling me what your role is how long you've been with mind as a useful starting point for my point of view yeah definitely I think that mind for quite a while right always within the fundraiser directorate so I started off working in made giving and corporate fundraising okay when 15109 years ago so when you completely different organization nearly a quarter of the size and turnover we actually a much larger number of local mines then that 15298 I think I was saying our head of Partnerships fundraising with my next role so and for us that means corporate trust statutory and made with Dana yeah and was there as easily moved from being a popular cause too much more popular cause and then following a years maternity leave in 17113 I came into a new role which was created for me as well and had a fundraising strategic development such as a little bit of a mouthful but broadly I'd be where I work across income generation tea and one of the big areas that I work for NASA I'm still working on was our income review with the network so looking at all the different ways income coming in for National wine and the network and putting forward proposals and plan for how we could work together collaboratively to make more of our shared assets raise money and the other some cross fundraising areas I work on is one is around working with whales which is another interesting area like working with whales working I guess that's possible isn't it that we are part of the same organization but face different challenges and yeah so kind of coordinating our in combinations that's the whales and then I've been more recently were involved in a lot of countries and governance kind of yeah I guess moving to that to having more tighter operational policies in place you know in the light of the new regulations and everything as well as looking at and sharing our ethical committee which is yeah how we assess me praise activities that come to us and I think the meat and cook for my bones are growing rapidly taking the last couple of years the movie at the same time it's been increasing scrutiny on the child sector widely but then because we have now become a sort of a bigger player than that then we are so I guess a little bit more at risk so yeah ensuring we have our eyes off even Peace Corps so yeah they were mixed bag at the moment but yeah was the working with our network is probably the major part of what I do at the moment yeah okay interesting then if you were to look at the sort of all that interaction with the organization how would you perceive the benefits of the pros and the cons of the Mind brand is it stand and I think we have I think the brand is strong and I think mind has a good reputation and you know the fact that we are leading mental health charity and I thought of owning that space is obviously really positive interesting weeks we run a focus group with fundraisers at local - quite recently looking at one of the things we're looking at is how mind how we talk about a thousand having to cut the network and I can share this with you for some quite relevant one of the local one participant said they and second by all of them that the Mind brand is both their biggest strength and also their biggest weakness because you know obviously it brings people to them and it has a good reputation and particularly you know local Factory funders who are the main funders of their work it's a real strength but you're the same time and I guess in the room there were fun days it's worth pointing that out but they have to spend more than I realized they said on a daily basis explaining to people the difference between National wind and the network usually because people I really know the difference between put it simply come down to a where donation has gone or being correctly spent so symbol for 15128 from the fundraiser point of view they would prefer but mine where they speak here against differentiation between mind and the network in always and Grand and obviously our brand is deliberately talks about mind and the network more broadly so we don't necessarily draw out that different because long enough to know that obviously when we did with the grand it was about kind of making things too easy to understand and took cooking as you know the phrase that we found it around back then with one mind so yeah I think that is where the real tension how to have a brand that delivers for us nationally and locally but also resonated with the public sure is for just saying that these kind of guys and these people in the focus group with a kind of saying it's just a one-way Street there so the national mind works for the national mind but one mind as an ocean doesn't necessarily work for them at the local level yeah that's the fundraisers were saying that talking about if you never mind so one of the things we say in the moment and we said we're here for everyone we're we're lot of course it wasn't so we Bunch together all of the different ways that mind and the network support people but the network will be there like that because I feel like we are nationally taking credit for the work that they do and this is long since been a source of tension in this came up a lot in the income of you that we kind of refer to the work that with it works guys and raise money rocket for the rationale of course I'm aware and I know that some local wines are aware that people spend about 15118% of our charitable and it shall be taken across the front facing and gosh or abrasion on supporting the network so that is called on actual work but it's kind of indirectly benefit localized yes we get out grants to small amounts but we will accentuate about the support that we get to network from local mines were access that support in a big way and they think that's what - great and they probably wouldn't have a problem with the wind took that without however there are also a lot of people the network effect we access the support that National mind is and therefore don't really see themselves getting a huge amount of benefit from what you do apart from obviously security brand yeah interesting and in terms of your kind of putting aside the bit of your brain that deals with the local mind Network what would you be your perception on how with some of your previous incarnations in terms of Partnerships corporate Partnerships major donors yeah but how would you see you know being purely self interested as a national mine fundraiser how do you think the brand is is helpful or not helpful for that point of view I think I got this I can't remember when we we branded 17109 I think around them would be about right of got sober seven years ago but I mean that was a huge shift we suddenly became much more personal we had much to know you so many more faces and people talk about people the times are over from the front of the public policy that was like made a massive difference to you know I've been asleep who pitch and have considered concerns and interpretations but I still think an organization we struggle to coherently and consistently explain what we do and why we're here and I think we do so many things which is a real strength but appropriately so many things we sometimes get tied up in knots trying to explain to Old dances fundraising audience with all the different things that we do and I think sometimes we potentially can lose our audience when we focus too much on your own do rather than why we here and our beneficiaries and you know between the network as well like we saw storing top of the Federated where I can work with it as well as campaigning we also love get look at the government and it just becomes a very long lie and yeah I think I don't see the brand quite tackle that in essence good there is the good copy that come out of that but we do use size will not always the most fundraising friendly but you know and and kind of are present within the workplace well-being Arena which is becomes huge it's been really valuable and that definitely helped kind of shift corporate fundraising for my thing about you know like 15598 kg into three million a year well now we're returning companies way because you know people want to be things be working with an old-fashioned see all the first things that we can bring the index has changed prior pads and training and consultancy so that certainly help people and really interesting Lee and this is still the case where we probably really lost several fundraising season where it could be so I say is made their own fundraising the relatively small and we have to be quite big investment in the team so hopefully that will help but personally particular and being quite hard to package up sometimes and yeah we haven't with the working on this but we haven't always had a clear repertoire or kind of shopping list of projects particularly that kind of tangible and we can say it's going to deliver this money helps with many people but has always been a Grail and I think we still haven't quite cracked that nut all those for now had a partnership is working with couple of agencies that have helped kind of get those products to be more compelling than appealing to amazing audience yep yep maybe if you look if you break some of that down a bit let's assume unless you want to tell me otherwise the the name is good and you're not sitting there sort of fed up with it and then is good I like me what about what about the logo I like the laser okay that's easy then what about the color the colors that so the color purple the color blue so I used to have a really bad color blue so should we look just like the NHS in your accounting formations right so yeah the color palette do you think it's a warm palette do you think you think you come across somebody was comparing for me the age UK colors which is quite a nice variety and and you know feel fairly warm and perhaps positive is most kind of you know thing I did you think you come across as a warm from the visual side of things as a warm human organization the new sort of blue and purple on necessarily what you describe as warm colors on there oh but you've got the yellow in there which is all three of those colors enough sorry do you use this region altogether enough I think and this is where there could be not consistency I think I do and I think the partnership team does whether that is consistent across the organization I don't know and I think this is written to challenge is that we've grown so quickly that I thought of bran and policing but you know what I mean and just I kind of internal comes around you know how to make how to use the Mind tone of voice and the color palette and the resources that are available to staff and the presentation templates and stuff like that I do quite often see them not really being used depending clean so I think because yeah probably that just and I think it's to do with the fact of it so big and the people really with you for less than 15108 years and what do they know kind of thing sorry they're people who've been with you for less than 15108 years and then you just run off to know about all those things yeah yeah but I mean even if you I think if you use both quite different few people at an operational level maybe he'd been here several years and you ask them to explain what my vision mission was and what we did so you get very different answers no that's absolutely true from what people have been telling me and and there are people still about just problems of growth for a brand you know when you've gone from 15118 million to is it now 15158 million in short space of time and so it's absolutely a big challenge yeah what about the for better mental health strap line till I like that do he does much for you I mean that particular my for me for talking about my times had a part yet but I think people take much notice of it and it's not something that we apart from within the logo I don't think we use it that much and being a single person is wax lyrical about that yeah and do you do you think the use of pictures these are visual imagery how does that work from your point of view I think and that's that's definitely something that was helpful when we rebranded as having access to pictures of people and say this is who you know use those much more readily than we did before putting faces to stuff and it would be good if some of them are less generic and also I got and I couldn't film unless involved in sort of putting delivering pictures not something that but we didn't have like people who we knew that this is a particular person and this is the actual story it was kind of just a faces and we could kind of just put those people close to them that you know important definitely struggled having a few kind of case studies a real and but we that everyone knows about like it's always a bit kind of his good quote random image you should say that because I was looking at a couple of other organizations and there's definitely a better tendency elsewhere to say here's a real person and even if it's only a couple of sentences you know this is a diagnosis of cancer this is the child survived or didn't survive you know and it's just it's all very Anonymous I'm sure for some very good and confidentiality reasons but it doesn't always help but it does make it very powerful especially when you know that you're just putting through a stock image rather than if you actually knew that was a real case I think you'd be able to come down a bit more passion making that we've struggled with in the past is having some really good stories that everyone can use and that we can really his messaging around yeah and I think I can't even on some people out there who would be happy to be case studies I can't believe it's not everyone would want needs to be anonymous because of colleagues at work or whatever yeah I agree with you I don't I don't know why I was so careful about that quite quite possibly we kind of had we had all our people come in for the the images and and I said we would put agree to not put their name so I don't know yeah you're right like maybe maybe five years ago it'll be different but with so many of our celebrity Ambassador is putting their face forward and telling their story I think you would also get everyday people doing the same is there a sort of if you as a fundraiser wanted a good approved as quite a fan of clinical word but yeah improved case study you know because I'm just thinking about you know whether the major donor indeed the grant funding or indeed the kind of stuff that James Robinson's doing an appeals is there a sort of what would you need to do would you normally then just go and create it from scratch and try and find somebody or what would the process be for that age-old question well I mean when I was at a partnership for sort of we created a bank of the case studies that we had used for fundraising let's see how weak we catalog of like like where they come from and be improved but it was there wasn't a particular process around it and we can we sort of Cobble something together ourselves and I think organization that something that's come up a number of times for a number of different reasons and again I don't know what the most up-to-date is there is progress in that area now for haven't haven't been so important to my job but yeah I think it's going to pop them and we would that be something you would sort of keep slightly out of view of the world call the band please for want of a better word or is that not all own cases support yeah just because because the organization wasn't particularly keen on real case studies and so would you need to sort of fly it slowly under the radar or was it I think we were able to a little bit more in the Partnerships team because we weren't doing Mass mailings public fundraising as we said their approval process is much more complicated and more scrutinized whereas you don't need to involve the communications team so much when you are pitching to to its roots with small group of people or for that matter for you know applications it wasn't from the audience when you think about the process of how the brand is managed at mind what's your overall impression of how mind manages its band is it doing it well is it fairly tightly controlled is it an empowering management is a policing management is it a sort of forward looking kind of responding to the needs of the organization what was your impression of that chicky say what you think I think I think it's probably a symptom of us getting much bigger and what I'd probably what I said before but for you know we're under more scrutiny because more than other first and probably more inconsistent use of the grand but I think people are struggling and I guess is probably a different conversation but yet to know sometimes can use to convey to you that when the something inside sided and form a bit of a barrier and not being weighed in a particularly helpful way and I think yeah so when you think about empowering I think we seem to be at the moment lot empowering less that he'd be less focus on promoting cools and images and template and workshops training on how you're going to make the groundwork for them and but more of the suddenly some of my summer vacations get when the company and it happens on here and it's all a bit kind of rough so I think it's it'll go changing head of communications at all of that like it's yeah about that could be internal quality somebody said to me that it was definitely brand policing not browned empowerment with that feels a little bit like that he put it more in that direction both when the brown was new there's they just seem to be a lot more around you know I'm completely more supportive and empowering yeah that's probably because it kind of you know how it is when with the amount of stuff is going out it's become more they have the capacity so much to be reactive rather than doing more of the kind of person you know just what that's my next question when you thought they had capacity to so you think probably those will capacity issues of just how much somebody needs to say yep that's fun no previous the issues I think there's also structural issues there's not a consistent way of working or even pending on he I had for example from paying for the focus group we had one person in computers into too happy with what you think for the then another person but with the last minute is completely change it so it feels like even within the communications team there isn't necessarily a consistent understanding of both their approach in terms of how empowering they are and really even what they think is you know important yeah so one of the things that some pity said was there's not a committee or a Steering group where all the different stakeholders you know fundraising local mines poms whoever else it might be some more sit down and sort of trash things out and and steer it in it's very much a comes LED exercise without a making this much yeah in relation to cons definitely doing it would be good if there was a sort of multi-departmental group which head back to comes kind of talked about the issues as a sort of brand Steering group yeah definitely it's another think a huge amount of stuff has been done proactively with our brand which is what I really welcome this piece of work yeah and I think what has become apparent to me as well is that when the last piece is done here is you can get you can do not let the ones with the you know I think they feel the plan to beat impose on the bed and obviously that's why you win hearts in the whole process no and I'm really pleased because right at the beginning we sit there should be all staff survey and then that was sort of only lately as all we also it's not the slaughter has gone out to all staff and in that they've now include it all local staff in local mind local staff Hill local mind stuff that will be definitely and so and I think that I might be gonna open her up I'm a bit hazy because what I know hasn't happened which I wanted but it is quite difficult apparently is that sent email it to every member of staff so it's now on the internet and promoted on the internet and the mechanisms by which local mines see that process but because my understanding is some like 15100,15898 local mines staff and 15398 National my own staff so it's a massive difference in number once you know it over there I think we might be getting toward more like 15498 nasty but I think we might be even more locally than than to these are two and a half thousand somewhere yes I'm like that might be more than that okay interesting or maybe I've had the figure four thousand but maybe that's increased trustees but she that would that would be possible yeah I know so that's interesting on the you know Katie saying there's little proactive stuff from that point of view their various messages that are in the sort of brand guidelines I just wondered what extent and I can tell you what they are but what extent do you think the the Mind messages sounds rather sort of sci-fi put like that but they kind of core messages that mind has trying to get across the wall how useful do you think the messages are so I'm thinking of things like we won't give up until every one experiencing a mental health problem gets both support and respect we provide advice and support to empower anyone experiencing a mental health problem we campaigned in roof Services raise awareness and promote understanding eccentric cetera are those things that feature in your daily life isn't in either working with local mind fundraisers or nationally much much more of the when I was head of partnership we used to use where to make sure no one has to face a mental health problem alone quite a lot you know again in Europe we found that more compelling than some of the other ones that you Fred yeah and like I said you know we would sometimes use the word what we will do is that whenever the phone with online whether your stress to question the crisis we'll listen will give you support that because again it just I think it connected it to the beneficiary a little bit more ya do ya I think do you think the messages of the right ones with the wording maybe isn't you know we both can do their own wording or do you think they need to think about the messages a bit more I think from a fundraising point of view obviously yep probably didn't have loads of strong enough but really got to their the different we're making and the difference to people's lives but it also completes that that is pretty with what we do and then it gets all caught up in the kind of world what can you take credit for back to the network so but yeah I think I think they were all right so like I said yeah we weren't something that we rolled out all the time and sometimes we expanded on them to make them a little bit more human so that's the one that I said before yeah local mines they think that nationally across the will you do the campaigning and lobbying and we provide services and obviously that he does not quite sure if my simple as that and so my fundraising perspective we certainly would want to be saying that because actually all you're doing all there's a really important part of our work but it's ugly you know fundraising for campaigning lobbying the government isn't necessarily what makes people want to give clothes so that's like life is important to emphasize that we give information we're here to make sure no one is alone you know people quite often we are often people first Port of Call when they are related to either decide that there are well that they need to get help and you know difficult to make information giving the compelling yeah but when you talk about it more from the point of view that you know actually that's when people realize they weren't alone that when people realize that you know other people experiencing the same things that's when they felt empowered enough to go and get help yeah and what was available so twisting around so it's less about the what we do but the impact it had on people's lives and how important that has been yeah yeah it one of the issues that you sort of hinted at throughout this conversation is the sort of national versus local do you think and that is utterly and I think deliberately unclear in terms of the outside world so you know yeah you don't explain it and the sort of you know them the Mind family or the my network is referred to slightly euphemistically did you think it would be helpful from our fundraising point of view or from either from the national local mines all the national Minds you know whether it was clearer that you weren't all one big organization I was about to happy family but that's not what I mean the because because it is a sort of tension as the different bits grow as to whether you are saying to people clearly you know kind of actually will work together yeah well we were different and I think that's a problem I think locally a lot of well and that and the focus group really was quite strongly that everyone was in the same time with this absolutely they would like us to draw out more and actually I can tell you what we did he put forward a message that isn't really one that we use but I knew I was answering a brief that they wanted and they really liked it and that was when he said mind and our network of local wines are here to make sure everyone experiences that will help us get the support like that everywhere we provide a national voice and local support for anyone except to make a for them and then we go down they nationally we campaign and raise awareness to transform at law as well as providing advice and information to millions of people locally we provide on the ground support have been people in their Community turning around him rides as far as joining so I really like that and I have you got an amazing memory all that has been written down and distributed or written down but it's not official it's not official because we're you know I think we and others have had we had the conversation with confidence having the focus group and it's highlighted to them Perhaps it is more of a problem than they realize how much they're loved the network wanted to threaten me and obviously that was a it was a it was a bit in complete agreement with what they like but we're not is there something you could send me I can bring you yet very brilliant I can send you both would it be fulfilled to have learned the notes from the focus group and who so the messages yet useless because of one of the men I don't think there are any easy solutions to it but one of the issues that comes out is the sort of you know the national local issue and an interesting that I talked to your new chair Stevie spring whose very keen on the sort of local stuff yeah and I think so I think it is an issue that is only going to get more high-profile I'm just not I'm not clear but I'm putting my hands that damn it anywhere else talk about it about how you resolve the issue about does it just confuse people say we're National mind and hundred and twenty-nine and you know locals or networks or families or whatever and then you've actually it's yeah it's pretty and I think we have sat wire that need a brand that's kind of got flexible messages according to the context you know we don't want to have something that's really complicated when we you know kind of little quickly get people to vote for tennis elbow or something but equally I think we need to have Flex in the brand but you know we're happy for local wines be able to go out the difference in a way that still doesn't help lines and because the reason that we did was we created a whole say cause me come with me local my consistently bags for they would like and really benefit from was a bank of messages but natural local to use to explain why we complement each other but why with your friends quite often for the purpose of your fundraising and there's a feeling that as a network we probably need and there's a will all the time and if we could have something that you know was kind of mind Tech but everyone can use that would be a no-brainer and then you know that was where you did have something and then it was very cramped down on by combat the last minute fuck yourself forward This Woman's message which we felt was what they were after because he wanted to see how that compared to the next thing that we currently use and that was all we got is kind of overwhelming with lots of yes that's all people waiting for exactly so yeah only when I think we still want to be able to put something in this message bank but he was something that we are happy with all the recognize it with as much as part of a much bigger thing because what you're doing yeah yeah interesting really interesting sounds kind of drools different eras I wanted to cover so going forward we talked about a sort of in a range of areas but going forward you know what are the things about the mine brand that you would like to keep on one of the ones that would be this is of summing up one of the things you would like to keep them one of the things you would like to change or do something about if you were sort of able in a dictatorial sense to do whatever you wanted with the Mind brand like I said I like the name I like the logo I like the line Glory that I think that you know it feels I know there are some people who think that is outdated so yeah and I think you know the burdens of just kind of read the brand value stuffable responses were here to fight your corner is really true to us and I think actually you do without and that comes out in a lot of our messaging you know we are with Lil approachable and Candy will give you a few more responsive to the needs to try to do invite all of our social media is about that but we are also here to challenge the government stick to our guns and be quite strong and Unstoppable I think that will really good stuff I think having many more stories that's it having stories and faces is great but I think you're more than fine actually Bill stories and less generic and more about what we do rather than just yeah it's a real story still this fundraising antigen the book isn't exactly exactly and but yeah I think having fun like I said having flexibility in it for there's so many different contexts that we were with complicated as I'm talking about also tells me you need to retain cool friends or over have sex in it to really work in a different context has stuff that really shows what the fundraising for example and I think generally it's probably would probably still that was S A converter be too hung up on what we do rather than why we're here and why such an amazing charity laughing you want to say yet more tools more proactive and power like the word news is empowering yourself to be able to use the brand way that works the best yeah so I lost a little bit you don't you talk right at the beginning about how one of your roles was to the word need to make the most of your shared assets yeah do you think the brand is a shared asset which collectively is on that agenda of shared asset maximization I think for the reasons I said before why local ones will say is you know one of the biggest strengths being part of my network yeah yes but do they feel that they really and that I think they're talking about in a bit more mind name of the Mind reputation and the mind brand and how we call ourselves yeah they don't feel complete but it's different but it's bit I think I said it before they feel it's getting pose on them and they don't spend a little time because I didn't didn't have much say in it so hopefully we will get a bit more simple saved from their point of view this time around yeah and then and also I think the climate is quite different about that the sort of national versus local I think possibly in 17099 person is it was more of a sort of national devoted one didn't local Man's real bit of an embarrassment is my sense and that very much seems to be changing sir yeah yeah we relationship is definitely or better I mean mind has invested so much more in its Network and we were the planets come out of the income review we are funding that and at 15100.4 million worth of investment that's really great still this is present so that might be you know that we are putting our money where our mouth is and they've got a much bigger voice than they did before so but there are still and there always will be the kind of a group of local mines that this kind of quite like having the you know it's convenient in a way for my to be a bit Escape go and the big National charity based in London at sitting on all the things said further it's a need to know that that perception there will always be some Minds that will kind of hang on to that yes is there any fundraising other popular people or person you think would be good for us to talk to his with interview like this since spoken to James Robinson I have indeed oh yeah told him how wonderful man city were and I livable rubbish but and obviously this is integral to his people who I could yes with own set of frustration yeah I think it would be good for you to speak to Jack Matthews who is the head of part now yeah my colleague is talking to a couple of people in James's team Louise would it be having goals and if you really have sounds like yeah anyone in the local mines Network in the local my network yeah anybody you think is right at the epicenter of the kind of you know the fundraising locally challenges good good so one of the things Stevie spring was like I want to hear from the ones who aren't very happy right okay the rain will be officially Annabelle Davis authorized interview search criteria but I think it is incredibly important to you know get the variety of voices yeah you want to hear for the ones that have engaged the ones that aren't so you know she's gone if you haven't you don't have to tell me now but if you did have any names of people you think will be good to talk to on on in the local minus T15099 happy you want something someone he's I mean there was definitely one that brings find I know I'm happy but they're also a little bit of activity I said before were they kind of always want to fight against the common enemy do you want one of those or yeah yeah well I think I think I think is really important that you know let's assume this is an exercise you're only going to do one three six to ten years kind of thing and very least I think those voices should be heard from people at yeah the Fun Line who have particular views you know inevitably not all of them can be taken aboard but if we if we haven't even listened to any of them we can't hear any of them at all so would it be useful for like feed his have a name of a cup of few CEOs we're doing some CEOs I don't have got the names yet actually but they're barely named you thought were useful and then based I'll just run them by the comms team to make sure that they don't have any problems and what you want I'm just thinking there was something there was one of the fundraisers who came to the focus group it was quite so cool but you know perfect yeah so fun of somebody who's not sure you know exactly okay so maybe when I send you the notes with a squeak and that the message that resonated well with and I can think of a few names put out an email yeah that'd be brilliant yeah people in anything else we haven't talked about Vanessa you think is important we cover quite a lot of the more I'm sure something will come to me afterwards but to do email us if you have any other thoughts okay I'll let you know brilliant now some really really really interesting so thank you so much for your time and very good to hear them they kind of both your perspective and the sort of you know your perspectives on the the local fundraising messages which really useful so great good okay thank you very much it's been really good to talk okay then bye bye